Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Was flying yesterday, so I got a chance to listen to episode eleven that we just dropped yesterday, and I was laughing out loud at parts like, you.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Know, it takes you there.
[00:00:18] Speaker A: Well, yeah, when we're doing it real time, I don't pay attention. But when I go back, I'd listen to some of the things that we say in the moment. What then takes me back to our actual life? It's pretty damn funny. I mean, to look at yourself talking about your actual life and then be like, oh, yeah, you're right. Like the part about, by 05:00 our life is a booming metropolis in the morning. It is. And it was today, like every day.
[00:00:41] Speaker B: It's actually interesting because when we're talking, I'm listening to you. Obviously, I'm responding. I'm reacting, but I am not interpreting what you're saying real time. As much as I would like to be, when I go back and listen, I'm like, mike's pretty smart. I learned. No, not that.
[00:00:55] Speaker A: I love the surprise with which you say that.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: I learned a lot from you listening back on the podcast. Like, I didn't hear it right here. I heard it. Same.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: Likewise. I'm laughing. But I agree.
[00:01:04] Speaker B: As we talked, we were talking about this morning being present, like, actually taking it in, analyzing. It's hard to do on a podcast.
[00:01:10] Speaker A: Yeah, but it is.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: So, again, another morning podcast.
[00:01:14] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:01:16] Speaker B: And today I wanted to talk about, to start, we can go wherever we want with it. But I started to reread, actually, the book grit or the power of grit or grit by Angela Duckworth. I had referenced it one other episode, and the one thing she talks about is the mundanity of excellence. And I couldn't get that little, you know how just certain phrases when you read or you listen to something, just stick with you amongst everything else. I just kept coming back to that, and I think you can look at that two different ways, and we will get into what that means to each of us. But things being the mundanity of excellence, just breaking it down, you've got to do the mundane, the monotonous, the unordinary, time and time and time again. It compounds compounding interest to get excellent, and we'll dig into that more. And I think you could look at that as like, that's very hopeful for me and a very positive, because it means you don't have to be the smartest. You don't have to come out of that womb necessarily with that innate intelligence or physical presence or whatever that skill set is you're looking for. You can simply just put the intentional time in and get into persistence and get there. I think you could also look at it on the other side of the spectrum. It's not sexy. It means a lot of time, year over year. It's not looking three weeks from now, four months. It's looking in decades, and it's looking the sacrifice and the time. So the other side of that is, wow, that sounds really boring. And we'll get into that or just overwhelming with, I just don't have the time or don't want to put that in. So I'd like to explore both sides of that spectrum and talk about our own experience, because I think your experience with this and mine is different just because we're in different evolutions of our journey and we're different people. And let's start there.
You can take it wherever you want to go from there.
[00:03:16] Speaker A: Yeah. Say the phrase again.
[00:03:17] Speaker B: The mundanety, which is a word.
[00:03:19] Speaker A: It is true.
[00:03:20] Speaker B: Mundanity of excellence.
[00:03:22] Speaker A: Yeah. So my first experience of what you just said is how polar they seem to me. Right. The idea that excellence and mundane would be used in the same sentence, thought idea, strikes me as really unusual. It has a very polar feel to me. But then when I back up and just think back through my execution or the type of execution that I've been part of for my 30 years in this role. So I'm just a year away from having been in my exact spot for 30 years. My father passed away when I was young. I took my rollover very young. But as I look back, it's coming up on 30 years that I've had this title. Certainly the role has changed and evolved, but when I hear excellence and mundane in the same sentence, I think, oh, my gosh, no way. But when I look back over my career, it's exactly that. And whether it's my work career or my golf career, I'll pick that one over because that's one I'm most intimate with. And you look at it and then I think about. Or I wrap around other sayings that I've heard along the way. Like, for example, small changes applied over a massive length of time yield huge benefits, right? That would be that thing where it would have that mundane feel to it, or it would have that repetition or repetitious feel to it. And then that makes sense, right? Those two words go together for me in that context. When I think about hitting balls for 12 hours to cut a shot out or making small changes and then ingraining it over another thousand swings or whatever that thing that is the other thing I think, too, is what you just referenced is the suck part of that is that there is no magic, there's no wizard, and which also means there's likely no shortcuts. So, like you, I love the idea that you don't have to be born with this dna component to be successful. You truly can outwork it. But the flip side of that for probably any number of people is, oh, hell, look at this commitment. Look how long this is going to take.
Americans, and I think humans and spots in general are about this quick fix. We take pills for things versus putting in the hard work on the treadmill or whatever. The other side of that is you brelvi. Let's just shoot ourselves with a shot which will have our bodies just puking out pounds versus putting in the work. And that's got to be really tough for some people. Like, oh, man, I have to do this for an extended duration, and I've got to learn about these small tweaks, and then I've got to go back and ingrain them. But for me, there's a lot of comfort in that mundane piece, the routine component of it just coming off of a routines conversation. There's that routine piece and that do it over and over again, which just really resonates with me. And as someone that has enough intelligence, it's really also comforting for me to know that I can just get up and outwork it and I can experience the same type of success regardless of what I was born with or what my dna or genetics would suggest from a brain power or bandwidth perspective.
[00:06:28] Speaker B: Yes. Speaking of that intelligence piece in that book, grit they were studying, I think it was 20 very high achievers, and they were looking at their iqs across the spectrum, and they were all a little above average. However, the ones that ultimately ended up in what they were calling that top tier of success, their iq, there was no correlation between them having greater iqs and then the ones that were in the bottom half. And it was just the intention behind that study was like it was the hours, the intentionality, the persistence, the commitment, the grit that they had versus the others, which is, for me, I love that. And I think, I want to say there's this generation, but it's not this generation. It's this society. We are all part of this now. So whether I grew up with a cell phone or not, I have one now. I use it, I scroll through it. So, as you said, we all are addicted to fast fixes, getting information quickly, real time. We all want results like this. So we're living in a world where it's very common to jump jobs over and over again. It's very common to look for the new hobby, jump hobbies, just always looking for the next thing. And while I'm sure there are some people that have success that way, it's very challenging, too. And without putting in the practice and the time into one thing, it's going to be very hard to be incredible at that thing. And it's just not something we talk about enough. And one thing we were talking about this morning was people love the mystery of excellence. So you watch Michael Phelps in the pool and you're like, I don't know how he got so good. I don't know. I'm like, I'm pretty sure I know. Did he come out of the womb with a massive wingspan and developed? Of course. But I know he did the mundane things day in, day out. But people love the mystery of it. You know why? Because if you admit that it was just him putting in the monotonous tasks that he needed to do every day, a, it's not as sexy and b, it makes you say to yourself, well, I could do that and I haven't. And then you've got to buck up.
[00:08:45] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. And then you have to reconcile around that.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Reconcile around that. And that is hard.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: Sure. And at that level, which we talk about a lot. Right. So think about Michael Phelps working to cut hundredths of a second, I think in swimming, right, Tommy, hundredths of a second. So Tommy D, one swimmer, they measure in hundreds of a second. So I'll talk about hitting balls for 12 hours to try to cut a shot. That's our increment. One shot, which if you're shooting par, that's 172nd. It's not quite 100th, but it's pretty damn close. That's what we're talking about. He is working at the pool at 04:00 a.m. Or whatever that regimen looks like, eating 6000 calories a day. I mean, he's all in, whether it's repetition, diet, nutrition, everything he does, every single thing is totally fully focused. That's right. And to try to cut 100th of a second. And by the way, you can also do all that work and have an off day, a bad day or execute poorly and you still don't figure right. You finish fourth, which means you're the fourth fastest person in that discipline on earth. And guess where you are? Nowhere. You don't get a look at the podium. So that type, if you look at it that way and, man, think, holy hell. I remember this will be a nutso moment, but I remember I'm old enough that when you had to stay home sick from school, there was nothing to watch. There was no ESPN. There was, but it was early days, or you watch soap operas, there was only four networks, so I would watch ESPN. And there was two things that were on australian rules football and pool, like billiard's pool. And I remember watching Minnesota fats was the best pool player in his day. And they always had these overhead shots of the table and it was wild to watch the best of the best do what they do. I would put Tiger woods in that class. You're talking about Michael Phelps, of course, but he would hit shots that I didn't even see and that was cool and sexy and hit the 9th bumper and knocked nine balls in or whatever the hell was going on. Yeah. Which literally using the word trick. But it was just watching the best of the best. But how many hours did he spend over that queue with that cue ball, with those other 15 balls working the angles? And you would talk about back to fractions of fractions of inches and as far as angles and bouncing balls off the other. Same thing. But just back to that idea of watching the best do what they do and thinking they have some superpower. I mean, how many superpowers can you have when you're walking around a table that's six by nine, right? Or three by nine or whatever the size is? Right. There's not a womb component of that, is there?
[00:11:16] Speaker B: Well, no. I would suggest that their superpower is the ability to focus and practice and commit longer than anybody else.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: That is a superpower. And everybody on this planet says they love something, that they want to be the best at something. But I could tell you, I can tell by your actions, what the degree of that your desire is, because your actions will lead the way.
And I think we always think when somebody makes it in a certain field or industry, whatever it is, you look at that wild thing they did or this reckless or crazy, it's like that's what we're seeing, that one instance. But it's the foundation that got them there. It's not that one crazy thing. It's not that huge. Just those tiny steps forward every single day.
[00:12:09] Speaker A: Right?
[00:12:10] Speaker B: And as we were talking about commitment, so commitment is a word that it's instrumental, a principle that's instrumental in all this. You've got to be all in, you've got to be committed. This one thing, if you want to be the best. This one thing has to be your priority, not second, not. There aren't three priorities. There's one.
What does it mean? What does it actually mean to be committed? And the way I heard someone describe it was, you are not 100% committed until you remove, eliminate, get rid of 100% all of your other options, which as a human being, you always want. Plan B, you always want. Maybe that second option over here till you say no. Done. I'm like a marriage. I am singly, wholly dedicated and devoted to this one person. You are not 100% committed. Because I'll look at some things in my life I think I'm committed to. Like, I've still left a little door open somewhere along the line. Click. Maybe I'm not. It's a really good way to start to identify what you're committed to and what you're not.
[00:13:15] Speaker A: Right? And I'm going to throw another idea in there, too. Back to your we have such a tendency to focus on success. So a lot of the people that are ultimately highlighted when they get there, when they arrive, right, it's well after they've put in all those blood, sweat and tears moments and then get into the idea of the difference between success and excellence. And it was explained to me along the way, and I agree with this, is that success is generally external. Someone else is declaring you successful, where excellence is internal. And I think part of this is that by the time we catch on to someone, it's after they are wildly successful, which is then bestowed upon them by someone else. It's an external reaction to what they've done versus the excellence that they have exhibited all the way through the process. Whether it's Phelps or tiger or whomever that happens to know, we don't actually stop and think about the excellence component, which is what they were doing when no one was watching, when the flashbulbs weren't going off and they were grinding out these small changes and they were putting them in over long periods of time. Now, some sports, like swimming, for example, I'm not sure when Phelps competed in his first olympics, I assume he was 17 or 18 or something. It's relatively tommy shaking his head, so I must be close.
That is thing. A little difference where you'd say some of these peaks because of the physical demands happen a little bit earlier in life, maybe, versus someone who finally made it big in business, who were grinding it out for a longer period of time. But we tend to focus so much, it seems, on the success component after the arrival versus backing into the excellence piece that that individual had the whole time through and putting in those hours and putting in that grind to ultimately get to the success component. Does that make sense?
[00:15:04] Speaker B: It makes a lot of sense, but I do think that people that are excellent at what they do do have a definition of success. I don't think they're the same thing, but I think you could look at anybody and you could ask them, well, how do you define success? And it just might be a different version of it. So in this book, they were talking about two potters. They literally did pottery, ceramics, and they had a bunch of different art that they were really good at, but they went all in, and their definition of success is how many really memorable, just great pieces of bowls or ceramics can we get into people's houses? Will they enjoy them and love them for many years to come? Had nothing to do with how much money they made. It was just like, that is their definition of success. So maybe it's somebody that is absolutely in the pursuit of excellence because they are very good at something, they love something. It's just about the excellence, not about a carrot or this thing they're chasing. I still think that they have their definition of success, but it might just be different than, you know what I mean? Otherwise, how would you even evaluate your work?
[00:16:16] Speaker A: Right. Well, this is a crazy one that just snapped into my head and maybe absurd, but I was thinking about artists, because you brought up pottery artist.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Do you have to say artists a certain way?
[00:16:29] Speaker A: I prefer artists. That's my french background I was thinking about. You talked about pottery, right? And the idea of art is really fascinating to me. Suck at it. Barely draw a stick figure, have an appreciation for it. Still don't really get it because I don't know that I'm wired that way. Although I love it and I try to appreciate it, I admit that I completely suck at it.
Music would be a component of that as well. And just thinking about, and I just happen to focus on rap. But you can put whatever, and I mean success to someone that was an artist like that, or a musician, let's say, would be making the music that you love, telling the story that you love, and there would be an excellence around that, right? The time that you put in, in the studio, playing the instrument, whatever that would be, the rest of the world would finally catch on when you sold enough of them, did enough, right. It would have that quantity component unfortunately wrapped around it before it would get recognized as success. Right. Until you sold your first million of this or so. On and so forth. You could be making beautiful music behind the scenes that was so inspirational and having the exact effect on the artists that they wanted and what really drove them. They would consider themselves hyper successful, but they may or may not be based on whatever standards we apply as it relates to moving product or things that would get you onto a show or in a venue where people came to see you or whatever, that would be unfortunately designated as success in spots, which sucks because it means we miss out on a lot of great things because they don't get highlighted appropriately when they're really great pieces of work, whatever the work would be.
[00:18:15] Speaker B: Do you think it's possible to continue to do. And you are just a perfect example of the mundanity of excellence, somebody that you've done the same thing for 30 years and like 30 years, you have stayed at literally the same job, the same position, same company.
I'm not going to get into all the nuances. There are different divisions and all of that. I think that's actually where I'm segwaying into. Do you believe that to be able to be excellent at something and continue to do those mundane tasks over and over and over again in your sleep, even, that you have to love something or that you have to be really good at it, is that required to sustain or for it to be sustainable? I should say.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: I think it makes the journey a lot easier and a lot more enjoyable than it would be otherwise. I'll just give you some examples. Yes, when I got into the business, we didn't have nearly the number of dynamics that we have. I mean, yes, we created intellectual property for military applications and so on and so forth. And I was always drawn to that way more drawn to that than I was the products that we bought from other people and sold, right? They were doing the innovating, they were doing the creating, and then we were wrapping a value proposition around it. That was our contribution. But somebody else did the hard work in the container side. We were taking other components and putting them together and creating our own designs and or intellectual property. And then that's what I was really attracted to when I started coming to the office when I was seven, eight, nine years old, and then ultimately came full time when I got a c plus in math in 7th grade.
Left to my own choices, I would follow around the designer and literally nip at his ankles. His name was Bill Fouss. He came from the Glen L. Martin company from way back when. And I would follow him around, annoyingly asking why always? And trying to understand what he was doing, why he was doing it. There was the design piece that I was fascinated by, and then there was actually getting into production, which was a different piece. Designing it and actually making it are very different. So I latched on to that. And then along the way was able to, or had the ability, and was fortunate to be able to call the shots, as I say, right, in reinventing inside of our platform, staying in our lane, nudging it out more appropriately where the synergies were there.
But that also kept me going right back to your original question, is that reinvention internally? Because I certainly, like you, can fall victim to boredom, right? The mundane would be attached to boredom, but I stayed away from that and was able to turn it into what might look like excellence because I loved it, right? Because that part of it drove me. Today, in our emerging thought leaders meeting, we talked about the carrot, right? Like, what's the carrot? Why do you do it? For me, it's about that creativity and that innovation that we talk about a lot. And I was just fortunate enough to have this awesome platform where I could continue to reinvent inside of it and people were interested and there was demand there, and those were closely tied. But that's the answer to I was able to continue to do that mundane thing, right? That small changes over extended periods of time manifesting into results. And that's exactly what my business career has looked like, which I just borrowed from my golf career and put all those together and stack those on top of each other, right? It wasn't doing this or doing that. Took all of those collective teachings and stacked them on top of each other to get higher than I would. If I had separated those, I'd only be half as high as I was if I didn't stack those.
[00:22:18] Speaker B: But going back to the original question, while those are great points, I don't know if the question was answered, do you have to love it or be really good at it to be able to do what you did?
[00:22:32] Speaker A: I do, okay? I do. I'm not sure everybody does.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: And you answered in a round. I just wanted to, very succinctly.
[00:22:38] Speaker A: I think the part of that is I'm very intrinsic in nature, so never got out of bed for a dollar a day in my entire life. So I say I do because the intrinsic nature of that, what I get out of the care for me, is the solve the fix.
Helping our customers do something they wouldn't have been able to without us or without our contribution. If you're extrinsic, then maybe that doesn't matter as much. Right. If the financial reward, and that's what I mean by extrinsic, in this particular example, if the financial reward is the driver, as long as there was money on the end of the activity, then maybe that wouldn't be the case. I can only speak for me in that. Yes, it has to be that way, because that is a big chunk of the carrot for me.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: I agree. I think that you have to, at the jump, at least have some interest or perhaps be really good at something. I think you've got to have one of those two hooks initially for it to be sustainable long term, even if you are making a lot of money. I don't believe that's enough. Here's what I do believe. I don't believe you have to initially love it so much, because what I think is, and what I've seen firsthand is, and maybe even this applies to myself a little bit, but as people get into whatever they're doing, their careers, maybe they like it and they start digging in and doing things day over day, and they start learning and they start getting better and they start figuring things out and they start solving problems, they start to develop a greater life for it and then a greater love as you learn more. So I think it's definitely possible to develop a like into a love as you commit yourself and to get deeper into something I thought was fascinating. So the latin root of the word interest is differ. Different. So that's to say, like, you need different things to keep your interest, or. That's the way I read it, which I think is why a lot of people jump from thing to thing. They get bored, then they jump to the next thing. But different in when your expertise is nuance. So as you're talking about, you're finding nuances in your business, and that is keeping that interest and love alive, right? So I think it's just a different. And I try to tell myself, because I've had a habit. I've had a habit where it's easy, an impulse, maybe is the better word, to want to jump to something completely new, especially when I was younger. But when I try to, I try to always think about what we're talking about now, because I want to be excellent. So I think to myself, you don't need to go jump into something else just because you're having a moment in time where you're in a rut or something's really monotonous or in my business, transactional.
Do something synergistic or nuanced. In your business or that you've stacked on, that's going to help your business, but that is also a little bit different on the periphery and supportive. So now my whole mindset and anything I do is you can get out of this feeling like you're stuck. You're just on this flatline level. You can shake it up a little bit, but you're not pulling out of your business. You're doing something to help it. But then you're invigorating yourself. You're getting that spark back. Hey. And then you can go back to that monotony and dating with being refreshed and knowing and understanding. This is what I have to do to continue.
[00:26:12] Speaker A: And that might even have a break feeling to it in a good way, right? I need a break because when you're doing that, there's an extra push and surge of energy that's necessary. That's very legitimate and very palpable and relaxing back into the mundane. How about that? There's a thought, right? Relaxing back into the mundane. Relaxing back into that.
A big mantra around here this year, as we knew the economy was going to struggle, there's going to be some top line challenges and growth. We took on this mantra of stabilize and optimize and we've spent the last five or six years growing in double digits. And the idea of stabilizing and optimizing after the supply chain challenges and Covid and labor challenges, man. The idea of relaxing back into stabilizing and optimizing was actually not only comforting, it was necessary and appropriate. Not anything that would sound like complacent or anything that would sound like procrastination or anything along those lines. So when you're making those moves, it's exhausting, right? It takes a whole new energy thrust in that moment. So relaxing back into that, right? I mean, imagine if you never stopped changing your grip as a golfer. How the hell would you ever get anywhere, right? At some point you've got to make that change. You've got to believe into it, and then you've got to relax back into the repetitions. Right? Into the repetitions to be able to optimize whatever it is, that change that you've made. And while it has a different feel, right. You might be back into the physical component, right. You're through the mental component of the change and accepting the change. And change is hard in general, but you've got to get back into that mundane component of the repetitions to actually give it a shot to get traction. And that's healthy too, right? I mean, there's nothing complacent or about that. Yeah, of course, you've got to then put it back to work. Those small changes you have to do for an extended period of time to get those benefits back to that original statement that I made in the start.
[00:28:20] Speaker B: Yes, but the approach that we're taking with doing other things like this podcast, it's for me, the sustainability piece. It's the reason I can sustain what I'm doing day in and day out. And we'll continue to be able to do that, I believe.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: Well, I think we both agree that this, for us, this podcast has a saw sharpening component to it, right? Like our saying is, you can't cut with a dull saw. So some people will go to an island, some people do this. I mean, for us, sharing our knowledge and spending this time together has a saw sharpening feel to it. So I know when I leave here and I go back to work, I cut way more efficiently than I did or would have if I didn't have this experience on a weekly basis.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: Well, my favorite thing literally in the entire world is to have intimate conversations with people that I deem as interesting. And you are one of them. And so there is nothing that I literally, in this world that I get more enjoyable. You know, if we go to a dinner with a great couple, we're typically there for 6 hours because we love it, we crave it so much. So this, for me, is better than being, I mean, dare I say, better than being laying in the sun in an island. I get more out of it. Now, I think people probably have different ways where they need to keep the sustainability alive. And maybe there are some people that truly work a ton of hours and they need to do something completely different, get off the grid. And that is their way. I will tell you, my way truly is doing as we talked about, it's doing other things. I think you do have to get away from the work, but I do think there is something to be said about doing things that are other things that are still going to help your work. And that's part of the obsession for me.
I can do other things, I can give myself a mental break, but I know what I'm doing is still even in the slightest way helping my work. And maybe those are the slight differences I'd like to believe even when I'm exercising, which is what I do 365 days a year. I love running, I love sweating. I know this, we've talked about it in my head. I know that I will enter the workday clearer, kinder.
My input and output, thus will be better. That is serving my work.
We have recently started getting on the water a little bit, and one could say, well, you're on the water. That has nothing to do with your work. Well, the first thing we thought is, who are the relationships and the people we can bring on the water with us? And sharing that experience, whether it's suppliers or customers. So it always goes back to that bigger question of, yeah, and maybe it's just because we love our work so much that why wouldn't we want everything to be a part of that or benefit that, I don't know. Does that make sense to you? Did what I say make sense?
[00:31:18] Speaker A: No, it does. So what I wrap that into is the idea that you can hone your craft while you're off duty. Right. You can hone your craft while you're off duty. And we've had some conversations. We mentioned this. So for those of you that are new or haven't heard us talk about it, we have a great group. It's called the emerging thought leaders. There are eight members of our collective teams today. I don't know if you happen to notice, there were five males and five females in the room. I took a quick count as I was looking around, and these are the types of topics that we delve into with them because they're as young as 24, 25, upwards into early 30s. Some have kids, some don't have children. So there's all different types of perspectives. And I think what my goal is is to try to articulate some ways that you could do exactly what you were talking about. Honing your craft while you're off duty, that you wouldn't necessarily have to have this or that. The episode that just dropped before this one talked about the seesaw idea, right? Does it have to be all this or all that, and just the general idea of polarization and does it have to be work or life?
Do those have to be on this seesaw, that in choosing one, you completely suffocate or rest the other? I don't think it does. And this idea that you're hitting on is honing your craft while you're off duty is also, I think, aligned with what I was talking about. That stacking mentality is, how do I stack this so I get higher, faster? So, no, I don't think that's far at all. Of course, it makes all the sense in the world to me, to you.
[00:32:56] Speaker B: And that's because I want to be careful.
For instance, in the meeting this morning that I'm not projecting that as required.
It would be easy for someone sitting in that room to say, oh, of course, you guys run the business. Like everything you want to do is going to be good for the business. It's going to be good for you, it's going to be good for your pockets, it's going to everything else.
And while that's true, I would also hope that would benefit everybody else in the room. But I don't want to project that. I don't want other people to think that that's a requirement, has to be like that if you truly want to get away. And not everything has to benefit work. I get that's just how we look at things.
But I would say, I think if everything you're doing is making you better at your career, you're going to have a slight edge. You're going to have a slight edge, period. That's somebody that's getting off the grid now. You could say, well, they're going on an island, they're getting refreshed, they're coming back to work better. But when you can find things where you're still getting that and you're benefiting your work at the same time, then you're really onto something.
[00:34:05] Speaker A: Yeah. And my intention in those meetings is to offer perspective. Just like here. Right. All we're doing is offering perspective, and there's 1000 ways to do it. But I think if I'm a little louder in this particular moment, it's because so much of what I read right now and so much of what I experience feels to me like it's on the other side or it's on the other side of the polar. Right. There's so much of this polarization in what I read, whether it's remote, work related, and this battle that's now raging between companies and their employees and how many days they have to come back to work and so on and so forth, this general unrest in the workforce, whether it's things that are going on right now with unions and whether it's southwest or the auto workers union or the ports, I mean, just pick it, right? There's this general unrest.
And I would say it frustrates me. It doesn't. It makes me sad at the idea that we would ever be polarized such that we would be in conflict with each other versus how do we pull the lens back and look at all the different perspectives? And I don't know, maybe I'm just reading some things and not others, but it feels to me in this particular moment in time, the voice that we are generally speaking from, or the perspective that we're sharing is a little bit absent. And maybe it's just that at this moment, the megaphone is being handled by people that want to talk about that, either because it's popular or it sells or it has a particular momentum. But it sounds to me, or feels to me like the seesaw is very heavily weighted on that side.
[00:35:44] Speaker B: And I don't want what side?
[00:35:46] Speaker A: Just this overarching conversation about having to choose between work and life. Right.
There's this choice to be made that they are mutually exclusive or even one step further diametrically opposed. And that's the piece that concerns me a bit, is that you would have this thing be diametrically opposed where you had to, you had to turn it off, and, or, and then if that even went one step further, which would be then terrifying for me. The people that were in the work environment would be experienced that way, too. You and me, the people that help us to run the businesses that have different positions, my executive team, for example, that that would ever then become part of the conversation, too. That's the part that I am guarded against. Or if speaking up louder, either through this platform or with emerging thought leaders, that's the part that I'm most sensitive to and just don't want to see it get polarized the way any number of other things have been polarized in and around the country in the last whatever. But certainly the last three to five years, the pandemic absolutely amplified some of this, and these are some of the things that I'm watching and thinking, man, I sure hope we don't go completely in this direction. At some point we pull it back a little bit.
[00:37:04] Speaker B: Yeah. As we're doing podcasts more and just having conversations, I have to remind myself, because it's impossible, I have this tendency now that we're doing podcasts, of always wanting to see the other side or speak to the other side, or make sure I preface my opinion with, but I know there's the other side, and that's too hard to do.
I think we all know you and I are open. We try to be open. We're trying.
But to always preface, I don't want to do that anymore, because all I can offer is my story and my experience, and this is what I'm experiencing. This is what has helped me, and that's really what I can offer. Anything else is just not genuine or not tested by me.
I'm hoping my experience, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. All I'm saying is, this is what it is. This is what I've gotten from it. Take it or leave it. And I think that mentally soothes me, and I don't have to just all the time talk about all the other perspectives. This is what has worked for me, and that's what I'm offering.
[00:38:12] Speaker A: Right. But I also think you and I are very sensitive and have conversations about creating an echo chamber. Either I would hope that our audience shows up because they like the different perspective, or when they're done tuning out for 60 minutes, walk away with a tidbit or a nugget that they hadn't thought of or hadn't experienced and would maybe even ingrain it. One of the things we've talked a lot about is trying to help some of the younger brands that you and I are associated with. Whether they're making something, distributing something. They're a construction company, a contractor. If we're fortunate enough to have an audience or some influence through this, how can we help them? And if they're listening, is there one little nugget that we share about execution, or they just walk away a little more inspired than when they show up?
[00:38:54] Speaker B: That would be the best intention. I think we need to play Evel's advocate. I think we need to debate things.
[00:38:59] Speaker A: Evil's advocate.
[00:39:00] Speaker B: Did I say?
[00:39:00] Speaker A: What did I say?
Tommy rolled that back. Tommy shaking.
Thank God.
[00:39:07] Speaker B: So here's.
[00:39:08] Speaker A: We needed a little bit of humor break here. Humor break, I think was completely appropriate.
[00:39:12] Speaker B: I said it. I still didn't even realize I said I would have kept rolling. Devil's advocate.
I've done a lot of talking today.
That's my excuse. But totally, I think we got a debate. But all I'm saying is I put so much pressure on myself. I'm like, just offer your opinion, your experience. That's all I could do.
[00:39:31] Speaker A: If it's attractive as it is. If it's attractive, it is, and people will continue to show up for it. Can I share one thing, too? Go ahead, finish. And then I do want to share one thing about the artistic component again, which I had an experience years ago that.
[00:39:44] Speaker B: Write that down.
[00:39:45] Speaker A: Believe me, I won't forget this one.
[00:39:47] Speaker B: Okay. But I don't want you thinking about it when I'm talking.
[00:39:49] Speaker A: I don't.
[00:39:50] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:39:51] Speaker A: I can multitask. One of the few males.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: We got to stop talking, because now I'm forgetting what I was about to say.
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Females can multitask, males can't.
[00:39:57] Speaker B: Anyway, what I say you just won't stop chitchattering. Now I have your chitchatter in my head.
Okay, so here's what I was going to say. I saw a statistic, and it might not have been from this year, but it's recent, the last five years, that a very large in depth survey was done and it came out. The result was that only 13% of Americans claim they are engaged in their work. 13%. And that was the highest across all countries except for one other country, which it might have been Canada or it was Canada or Australia, I don't know.
[00:40:35] Speaker A: But was that us?
[00:40:37] Speaker B: That was us number and we were the highest.
Yes.
[00:40:41] Speaker A: At 13.
[00:40:42] Speaker B: At 13%.
So I got to thinking to myself, maybe people on the outside looking in could say, well, that's easy, again for you guys to say what you're saying, to do what you're doing, because you have found an interest or a passion in what you do.
And I would say that I think people don't dig deep enough into their work because again, I like construction love. I don't know if I absolutely love it, but I love the business, I love the problem solving, I love the customer facing interaction, I love the deals, I love the things inside of it. So I think there is the opportunity, not for everybody. Sometimes you're just in the wrong place. But I think there's a lot of times you aren't looking hard enough. And I would offer this to people that are working inside organizations. You're not looking hard enough at your job and what you're doing to figure out what you might really like. So something. For instance, Tommy today in the emerging thought leaders meeting said he was getting joy out of. So he's in marketing, editing videos in different ways and then going from one to the other and trying new techniques and tactics. And then you can also look at the analytics behind it. And that was inspiring to him and motivating. And so he's like, this is my. And while Tommy does like media and production and marketing, so maybe it's a bad example already, but just finding ways to get creative and inspired inside of those tasks. So Connor is one of my young leaders and he is a project management manager. He just signed up to take a.
So after, is that project management, a project management course? Yes. Sorry.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: So he and actually another employee in my company are taking it together. So after work they will do 3 hours, I think it's a couple of times a week. They'll do it for a month or two months, they'll take a course. So they're learning project management skills has nothing to do with Tagler construction and supply. This is simply project management skills from a macro level that can look like everything from organization to, I don't know because I haven't taken it. But what I'm hoping is, and what I was talking to Connor about is like, maybe he's going to find real passion for the art of project management, like, everything that goes into it, and then really hone his skills and get his inspiration, motivation out of that. Maybe bringing new things into Tagler that we haven't adopted from an organizational or structural standpoint that could make a project manager more successful.
Look inside what your job is. Maybe I'm a salesperson, and I realize that working with people is really what I love. What can I do? How can I change my behaviors and my interactions? And how can I start gauging that progress if I like competition or if that's intriguing to me, to start finding joy in that craft of social interaction? So, do you know what? Maybe it's peeling the layers back of your job, finding what you do like and then digging into that which is going to make you a better employee, a better teammate. You know what I mean?
[00:43:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I completely agree.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: Instead of going through the motions every day.
[00:43:50] Speaker A: Well, what you just described is exactly what I've been doing. You said early in this episode, you said, I feel like you're the master, or whatever word you used in that over your career. And what you described is exactly. Was peeling back the onion inside of this thing and figuring out how to do exactly that. And here's the other thing, too. Back to that excellence and the mundanety mundanity of excellence. Yeah, thank you.
[00:44:14] Speaker B: You switched that around on me, and it got me all my wires crossed.
[00:44:18] Speaker A: Felt like I pulled it off beautifully.
But here's the other thing, and we've talked about this, and we talked about it today, is as you are in your role longer. Let's go back to a football analogy, Ray Lewis being one of my favorites, who played linebacker, I think, for 16 years or something like that in the NFL. Without question, he lost a step along the way. That's just the way the world works as you get older. But his knowledge was such that he saw the angles and still made the tackle as fast or maybe even faster than he did as a younger player. But he had to do it for 16 years to be able to see the angles. So I'm putting this together with your conversation about Connor and his PMP. If you don't stay in there long, enough to actually learn to see the angles. And by the way, I'm sure Ray Lewis took just as much pride and pleasure in making that tackle at 23 when he got there faster, or his speed made up for his lack of ability to recognize the angles as he did at 35, when he still made that same tackle. He might have even gotten him for a yard loss that he wouldn't have because you have to put in, look at the repetitions, back to our original piece about this mundanity. Look at the repetitions that he had to put in to be able to recognize those angles and see what they were and still have that type of success. And it might have even been a little more rewarding later in his career than it was earlier in his career because he had a respect for what it took to get there. And unless you put in those repetitions and put in that type of work, how will you ever get there? How will you ever get to see the angles if you don't go through that mundane component of doing it over and over and in his world, getting in the ice tub after to make sure that your physical machine can continue to do that, that's not a challenge I have in my day to day life, is my physical machine failing me. But when you look at it like that, and I like the athletics, we ended our last episode saying we don't look at the best athletes in the world and say, oh my gosh, their work life balance is really off. Of course it's off. Not only do we not pay attention to it, we respect and celebrate the hell out of it. Patrick Mahomes, how many hours you think he puts in studying film, throwing balls, so on and so forth. With three coaches next to him, not only do we not question their work life balance, we celebrate the shit out of it and spend all the money we can going to fund and fuel what they're doing and paying that respect. So if you don't actually stay in a role or in a spot long enough, you won't even get the joy, if that's what drives you. You don't even get the joy out of seeing that angle and getting that win that you might not have as a younger player, whether that be in business, sports, picket. But that was just a takeaway. As we were talking through this.
[00:47:08] Speaker B: Yeah, in the grip book, I'm reading the power of grit.
They call that the deepening phase, and most people don't get there. I don't recall what the other two phases are, but in my opinion, it's like you identify it, then you come up with the tactics and the technical to start practicing it. But until you get to that deepening phase, it's hard to, you're just not going to become the best at it. But getting there is the mental fortitude and commitment and that you've got to.
I heard a little chatter, and that's because it's in the middle of the day, in the workday, and we've got some business going on.
[00:47:49] Speaker A: Hopefully there's some machines screaming behind that wall, too, because here in our business, if we're not making noise, we're not actually doing anything. Can I go back to my original? Yes.
[00:47:56] Speaker B: The artist. Wow.
Good memory. Thank you. I would have never came back to it.
[00:48:02] Speaker A: That's because this is the benefit of early podcast 330, not, yeah, not happening. I had an experience a few years ago, and it was a charity event, and they had four writers of songs on stage, and these were all very popular songs. One need you tonight, lady Antebellum, which I think has been changed to lady a now, but all on stage together, they were country, which I'm not the best country listener in the world, so I didn't necessarily know all the songs. But I will tell you what happened along the way.
They each told the story about the song, how it happened, what they were thinking, what the engagement with the ultimate artist is, so on and so forth. And then they sang their song. So one guy, and there's a couple of things, thousands of takeaways for someone who's so foreign to that particular part of the world. The guy that wrote the lady antebellum song need you tonight sang it. And my first thought was, why didn't you sing it, right? I mean, this guy was amazing.
Somehow he had to hand this hit off to somebody else to become a hit. I heard him sing it. I was every bit as much in love with the song as I was when Lady Antebellum did it. Fast forward to somebody else singing their song and they forgot the lyrics. They were playing the song and singing it and forgot the lyrics. And you know what happened? Everyone other three sang over it. And at that point, I just thought, well, that's completely diametrically opposed to what I'm used to, because a lot of times in the world of business, it's a zero sum game where for someone to win, someone else has to lose the stock market. Every time a stock goes up a buck, somebody's happy and somebody's not so happy. And that was the interesting part to me. As I sat there and watched artists.
They're all competing in the exact same space called country music. But do you ever think they call themselves competitors? What if I said, hey, Ford and GM, would you ever put the muffler on at the Ford plan? If somehow the guys didn't show up to do it? They would look at me like I was crazy. Not there. Not in that particular world. It's almost know we're all doing this thing and there's tons of demand and tons of consumers for what we're doing, and we just love doing it anyway. It's never about the consumers in the first place. They just happen to show up because I did something that was attractive, resonated with them. But that was an interesting takeaway from the world of art, if you will, that I never paid attention to. Sports are the same way. When there's a winner, there's a loser. And the world of art, back to the pottery comment that you made. They just felt great about getting their pots into people's hands so they could enjoy them with their flowers in it or whatever their particular driver was. That's one of the takeaways that I saw at that night, which made me have a new appreciation for it in how it's not this zero sum game like so many other parts of life are.
[00:50:49] Speaker B: But I think you would have artists that would disagree. I think if you consider an actress, for instance, artists, somebody's getting the part, somebody's not. If somebody's getting that concert opportunity that they wanted, somebody's not. So I hear what you're saying, and I definitely agree.
[00:51:05] Speaker A: Great point. They all made it, so that's fair, too. The same thing you said they had all made it. They had written number one songs. So, yeah, maybe that's a little fantasy on my part, but, yeah.
[00:51:16] Speaker B: Or maybe there's something to that. Once you get to the top, you know, you're good, you've put your time in, you're so incredibly secure that you're able to be so selfless and supportive of other people. I mean, maybe the insecurity is gone. You've already proven yourself.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: You're already there and have an appreciation for. I'm not sure Ford has an appreciation. When GM makes a knock it out of the park Silverado, that takes out their f 150, right?
[00:51:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:51:43] Speaker A: Or maybe they have an appreciation, right?
[00:51:47] Speaker B: Yeah. I don't know. That's an interesting thought, and I agree with it. I just think there's a lot of exceptions, as there always is.
Well, this was interesting, and I want to make sure I'm clear on this. One of the reasons I talk about some of these things, because I don't ever want people to believe that we talk about things because we are executing them the way we talk about them, or that this was one I actually wanted to talk about, because the more I talk about it and I remind myself to stay in the thing, to stay committed to the thing, the more likely I am to do it. There are so many times I want to jump into something else. I want to do it all the time. And when we have conversations like this, when I see and read the studies that I'm reading, when I see the analytics and it starts making sense, I'm seeing that it's working, seeing what we're saying is real, it makes me more knowledgeable, makes me believe, and it makes me better at actually doing the thing. I don't have this figured out. I don't have a lot of this shit figured out we talk about. But I think when we do communicate about it, and that's the thing about long form discussions, or discussions in general for anyone, you open the conversation, it lets your mind wander and it allows you to see things in different ways. And for me it's an accountability thing. Now, if I find myself jump, not doing what I need to do because it's a little bit boring and I'm doing something, I'm doing some bullshit somewhere else, I can think back to this conversation and it's a really good reminder. So I do think these conversations, we don't have it figured out. We're not touting that we're better than anybody else, we're all working on it. But I love it because it brings me back to it. And I get instrumentally, exponentially better. Because you know what? I don't want to be on camera talking about this shit and doing something else.
[00:53:47] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. Because anything for you and me that would be disingenuous or lack being genuine is going to be completely counter to that.
[00:53:58] Speaker B: I can't do it. I cannot get on a camera every week and not at least try to do what we're talking about.
[00:54:04] Speaker A: And here's the thing too. How would you ever think for 1 second that you could have it figured out? In a world as dynamic as we live in right now? It's always been dynamic. And I would say, and someone in 1930 would have said it's more dynamic than it's ever been. Look, we're making cars on an assembly line mind blower, but the dynamics with the connectivity of the world, how would you ever think for 1 second that we, anybody has it figured out in a world that is dynamic as it is and I believe will continue to be more dynamic because the data share, whether it's AI or whatever these components are, and the data share and how we connect these 8 billion mammals, humans on this earth is going to continue to continue to be greater and I believe make the world more dynamic. How in the world would you ever be dumb enough to think that you had it, quote unquote figured out? No way. And we sure as hell don't.
[00:54:58] Speaker B: This is not a closed I generally like to summarize or at least have some kind of closing statement. This actually isn't. I'm just offering one more thought and it's not a closer at all. But I just want to get it out there because it's all my mind and relevant. I was listening to as so many people know, Oliver Anthony is the singer that just got founded. But Joe Rogan had him on and today, but he basically just wrote a song. He's been singing songs and somebody found him out and then Joe Rogan posted and now he's just coming from the mountains or the farmside and literally three weeks ago nobody knew who was. He's just famous. And the one thing he said, which today I really loved it, he said he sings in a particular way where he's had no formal practice, he's never gone to music class, never had a teacher, he doesn't sing out of the right part of his mouth as they would teach you to do. So he said, I just sing like me. I've always just sang like me because I've never even had somebody to tell me otherwise. And I think then that's why people love him, because he sings in the wrong way and everybody knows it's so him. So when you're thinking about doing what you're doing every day, I think that piece like making sure you just don't think that you have to conform doing things your way. It might not be. And it is funny how when people start doing things the wrong way, then all of a sudden society starts to conform. And all of a sudden that's like the right way that people are starting to emulate. But the point being those little quirks and those little things that you have lean into those and then all of a sudden it makes it a little bit easier because you're not trying to conform, you're just doing your thing the way you want to do it and you're yielding great results. That makes doing the same things day after day a lot easier and more fun.
[00:56:45] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, he was excellent long before the world deemed as successful.
[00:56:49] Speaker B: Right. That's all that happened as him without any.
[00:56:55] Speaker A: Same guy he was four weeks ago. Now somehow we give a shit. And that's right.
[00:56:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And be so intriguing because it's just so authentically him. And he's leaned into all these nuances and quirks about himself and the way he does it. So those are the things too. I think if you can lean into that and not try to change those. And you don't have to fight that friction. It makes this way easier. It's a little off topic, but I think relevant.
[00:57:24] Speaker A: Yeah, totally. Well said. And I think a great place to let our listeners ponder this one for a while.
[00:57:29] Speaker B: As will I.
[00:57:30] Speaker A: Me too. That's why we do it.
[00:57:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:57:32] Speaker A: All right.
[00:57:32] Speaker B: Okay, that's good.
I think that's good. You guys tell. Was that good?
[00:57:37] Speaker A: Exactly. Okay, that's good.
[00:57:39] Speaker B: We're out, if I do say so myself.
All right.
