Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: This is a great way to start. Given our topic this week. You've been particularly just balls to the wall. Yeah, all over the. So you're going to be in four different cities in five days.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Yeah, six flights, four cities, five days. Which I love.
A couple of things about it. The ability to be productive on the road really is a game changer. Where airplane time used to be horrible because you just couldn't get anything done. Now it's the flip side. With an Internet connection and a laptop, I can do anything anywhere.
[00:00:45] Speaker A: And maybe even better because you cannot be distracted.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: True. Look, there's something to be said for that, there's no doubt as it relates to productivity. But yes, despite them being a little bit of a grinder in spots, they're so exhilarating because I'm usually out customer facing. I was in indie and working on a brand new software product that is AR based that aids in picking productivity. I won't get into the weeds today, another day I'll get into the weeds with a customer yesterday going to a very high volume bakery. So think about where your hamburger buns come from. Exciting, I know, but when you can make 72 buns a minute, those have to get into a bag. Those bags have to get into a box. That box has to get onto a pallet. All things that we solve for. So yes, I am very fired up on days like this. I also love that we're shooting in the morning. I even had a hard time sleeping last night because I was so fired up about a shooting this couple of really productive meetings this morning and then right back onto an airplane to Chicago and taking one of our really young, talented applications engineers who I just love to watch, dig into these applications and cook them down and get deep into the numbers. And we have a lot of great conversations in the process. So yes, if I am particularly energized today, that is why.
[00:01:59] Speaker A: Yeah, I too love our morning shoots. So the topic we discussed prior that we are going to talk about is workaholism. And the reason I wanted to talk about it is because lately it's almost like there's been a war on hard work or the idea of hard work. And I never thought I would see the day. And I have always prided myself on working hard, not being necessarily the smartest. But I will outwork you. And to this day, you're 30 years into running your business and you're still talking right now about your 18 hours days this week. So you continue and hard work and the time you spend, they're not necessarily the same thing, but generally speaking, the more hours you're putting in, hopefully they're effective. Hours equate to hard work.
So I wanted to get your take on. First and foremost, why do you think all of a sudden hard work has become a bad thing or to some people, or that it's even being talked about?
Why the change of perception on that?
[00:03:22] Speaker B: That's a great question and I'm glad we're going to get into it. So a couple of things I want to say that clicked with me as you were setting that up.
One is we talk about the length of days. That's never a chess pounding event or a look at me event. It's simply communication on what a particular day looks like.
I think I just use grinding, grueling, but it's not. I don't feel that way. I really don't. I think if you love what you're doing, it doesn't even really occur to you. I mean, technically speaking, was I doing things on behalf of proliferating Arnold packaging? Yeah, I was. I absolutely was. But it doesn't feel like that. And I think somehow they have become mutually exclusive in spots where this balance component would have a seesaw type feel to it. If you were pressing on one, then the other one would go up and vice versa, versus something that has more of a synergistic or a harmonious. Oh boy. That's the problem with the early ones, a harmonious feel to it. And I don't know how we talked about my background a lot. My father was greatest generation 102, everything I always talk about. And at my age, I had the very distinct, I'd say, pleasure of watching that generation and how they approached and understanding through the stories that my father would tell me. Whether it was World War II or whatever, we were talking about a particular time, what shaped that generation, whether it was conflicts along the way. My father was born in 1921. So think industrial revolution, think depression, think some really. We like to talk about scrappy. Talk about some scrappy times where you had to strap it on and really get after it. So I had the pleasure of watching that generation, my generation, the generations behind.
There's quite a difference between them. And I think generations described as 20 years is probably a little too long just based on how information flows and how much information is available and to share and influence not just locally or nationally, but globally. I mean, you want to know what's going on in Thailand, pull out your supercomputer and look it up. At any particular time?
I don't know I don't recall it as prevalent in 2019 prior to the pandemic. I think there's been some contribution from the pandemic as maybe it relates to people taking. Assessing their lives or assessing what's important, and a reset of sorts is likely going on. But I would like to see my perfect world. I know that you and I are very unique in this regard and that we truly love what we do, and it doesn't feel like work, but from an onlooker, you'd say, that's insane. I don't even know how you would do that. That's crazy. I would never want that for me or anybody that I cared about. But that's not how it appears to us. I mean, we talk about sitting on the couch on a Sunday, and it's not like there's a chain that's connected to the couch, right? I mean, we're there moving the ball. We're generally up early. It has a very refreshing, exhilarating feel to it. I thrive on that productivity or that accomplishment, and whether it's the athletic world that we come from or so on and so forth, it's just ingrained. But I don't know. I don't consider it work. So I'm trying to figure this out because I love this topic and I'm always interested by the conversations that I have around it and what I read about it. And some of these articles I get into are clickbait. I get into. I'm like, oh, jesus, that's what we're talking about. But there is a real in the world, whether it's working with our customers, the associates that work with and for our customers. I mean, I'm so lucky to be exposed to such a very wide group of people in what they do and how they show up, nationality wise. I mean, you name it. I also ride in Uber cars where they're from different countries and are working three jobs. They're part of the gig economy. There's a guy that's driving Uber, getting paid, he's driving with his knee, he's closing a deal on the phone. I mean, there's all of these different inputs that happen, and it's an interesting time. So I don't know if I answered your question at all. That was 1000 thoughts.
I think this is a conversation, right?
[00:07:45] Speaker A: So you didn't answer the question at all. But I think that's the point.
There's not a right answer. I know what side of the fence I sit on. I believe in hard work, and if I'm being honest. It bothers me when people don't work hard. It's like my biggest pet peeve.
That's the way I feel about it. Everyone has the ability to work hard, and I think, for me, that is what I've been able to lean on my entire life. And I knew I could beat somebody because I could simply work harder than them. And that's a great feeling for anybody that really is to know that's in your control. I mean, it's like, okay, I might not have been born the smartest or had this natural talent, but I can work hard. So that's what I believe in. However, I am not saying that that's necessarily right, that that's for everybody, or that people that sit on the other side of the fence that believe that are heavily in favor of more of a work life balance. And all these things are wrong, right? I don't think they are. I agree with you.
I would not be fulfilled by that. I am very fulfilled by working extremely hard and getting up at 03:00 a.m. And doing just working all day. But I do love it.
But without that, I just wouldn't feel like me.
That is what gives me motivation, gives me this adrenaline you're talking about ignites my knowing. I worked hard, I saw a result from it, and then we keep that cycle going.
[00:09:20] Speaker B: Well, how about this, though? Let me bridge to a quick sports analogy. If you were to be a marathon runner and a marathon trainer, right? That's the same type of tenacity that we're talking about, that you would approach a workday the way you and I tend to approach a workday. A marathon runner, a marathon trainer would approach the same way. Yet I don't hear a lot of conversation or people saying, what's wrong with that guy running 28 miles a day or 100 miles a week or whatever some of that training looks like. It's interesting that it's dropped in and or focused on the idea of work, which, again, we could spend another whole episode defining what work even is, let alone. And I think the definition of work is changing a lot. Again, back to the technological side, but somehow we as a society, and I don't know if this is an american thing or where it falls in the world in general. I mean, what's the conversation sound like in India? Right?
[00:10:23] Speaker A: It's not the same conversation.
[00:10:24] Speaker B: Let's pick about a massive billion person emerging market. What's the conversation sound like in India? What's the conversation? So it's hard for me to even understand, because I just don't have access. Even though I said I could pull out my supercomputer, it's hard to get the nuances up close from 30,000ft. That is your phone. But what does a conversation sound like in the rest of the world?
Is this an american thing? Is it an american and european thing? What does it look like in emerging markets or emerging nations? Those are the things I don't know. But at least for this particular moment, based on what I read and the amount of input that I see in articles, and I'm talking about Inc and Fortune, I'm not talking about some guy in his basement slinging stuff on Twitter. Right? I'm talking about legitimate journalist organizations that are spending time talking about this subject and I just consume it. And to this point, besides you and I haven't had a lot of commentary on it because I'm still in a data collection phase. There's all different types of perspectives and I try to be sensitive to understanding all of them. I still know what's right for me. Like you, I'm not trying to figure out who Mick Arnold is by reading these articles. I know what fulfills me and what makes me happy, but I'm still figuring it out for the rest.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: And you have to, as a business owner that has a lot of employees, you have to understand the people that you work with.
[00:11:52] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:11:52] Speaker A: And it's super important. So as you go back and forth and think about is, it's called workaholism. And a lot of this has to do with simply the way we've worded it. Workaholism, hustle, culture, grind. Like all of these words, I think have given a particular negative, kind of like meaning just the word itself.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Right. Well, I mean, anytime you attach holic to something which everyone's very familiar with, the alcoholic component.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: Right.
[00:12:24] Speaker B: It just doesn't have the word grind.
I don't know. Usually when someone says, oh, it was a grind, they're not saying, and they don't follow that on with and it was a joy and I can't wait to do it again.
[00:12:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:36] Speaker B: So it's unfortunate that somehow there's these negative connotations that have been attached to it. And I don't know, the other thing I'm trying to figure out too, which I'm always very aware of, is, is it a few people making a lot of noise or is a lot of people making a little noise? That's the other hard thing that's difficult to decipher in today's world. Of social media and all of these megaphones. Like one of our episodes, we talked about giving people a megaphone to tell their story. That megaphone is available for any purpose that you want to have it available for. And it's hard sometimes to disseminate if it's a few people making a lot of noise or a lot of people making a little noise. Because in my approach, if it is truly a lot of people making a little noise, that's something that needs to absolutely be heard, because that's a potential groundswell or change or disruption. I'm not sure that I necessarily feel the same way about a few people making a lot of noise. So I think that's one of the reasons why this topic can be a little bit challenging and trying to figure out where it is. And also, is it here to stay? That's the one thing I always ask myself, too, is I see things that look like trends, or at least they're early or an early stage. Is this something that's here to stay?
It would seem that this is. I'm not sure. I really wish I had some great answers, but I'm learning about this real time, just like you are.
[00:13:53] Speaker A: That's why we're talking about. There's no answer. We're not going to arrive at an answer. But the one thing Alex Hormozi I listen to a lot, I think I'm pronouncing his name correctly, and I really enjoy his content. And something that he said that really made me think, because I align with the mindset so much, was he just works all day, every day. That's what he does. He has an acquisitions company, acquisitions.com. And he said, why does it bother you, whomever, that I work all day, he's like, for you, that looks like a bad life, but why do I have to fit the narrative of, like, you don't have any hobbies. He's like, yeah, I could be out riding a horse or doing any other hobby when I'd prefer to be doing business. And I enjoy that more. So why wouldn't I be doing what I enjoy more of that? Because it doesn't align with what your narrative of a good life is.
[00:14:47] Speaker B: Right?
[00:14:49] Speaker A: And he goes on to talk about, sometimes you have to let your parents dreams die before you can live your own of what they have in mind for you. And that's a whole different subject. But I think that's a really good point of just letting other people's thoughts and ideas of what balance is or what a good life is.
That's not. My good life is working really hard, working really often, doing it with you.
[00:15:18] Speaker B: The people that we meet, the people that also. That resonates with who are there for the same reasons.
[00:15:22] Speaker A: Business. I love business and all the creative aspects of a deal and sales and everything. I enjoy doing that way more than I enjoy most things that may be considered a more enjoyable activity, whatever that may be. So I think it's important to remember, just because other people are telling you, take a break or do this, that's not enjoyable for me, and that's okay. And just like, I wouldn't push what makes me happy or hope I don't on somebody else. So I think it's like really getting to know yourself, think, no, this makes me happy. Like, I really enjoy doing this. And yeah, it's 18 hours a day. And other parts of my life do get sacrificed in the process, 100%. And I know that.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And you choose it. I think it comes back to, we use this word a lot, but alignment. Right. Therefore, I think people will tend to align with others that have a similar mindset or worldview. I think if I do have a concern about this one is that it gets mean. There's so many things that happen and don't. I think this is a United States thing, and we never want to get stuck in Baltimore or Maryland or even in the United States and spots. Right. I mean, we like to talk about the planet because it's available, right? It wasn't always available. It is available now. So instead of being Americans or typical Americans, try to understand what's going on everywhere else. But we have this tendency now to just grab a topic in the United States and polarize the hell out of it versus just saying, well, that's okay. That's your perspective. That's amazing. I have all the respect for in the world. I'll talk about anything you want to talk about, and if you are logical and willing to have a reasonable conversation, you can have the exact opposite thought of me. And I'll celebrate it even more because I'm going to get a chance to learn. My concern about this particular topic is that it becomes polarizing or it has this war footing underneath of it. Like we just get into now, whether the events that spurred the Capitol or things like that, where you have this 50 50 battle and it becomes a war and then locks us down. Right. It keeps us from being as good as we would be otherwise because we have this energy that's pushed in this direction versus all of the other things that we need to get done globally. Right? I mean, there's a lot of people out there, a lot of countries that really, really want what we have. And I think we lose sight of that in some spots. I talked about the greatest generation, but there becomes more and more separation from the events that got us where we are today. Freedom isn't free and all that. And this is not a commercial, but I'm just simply saying that there becomes more and more separation from the people that were responsible for that type of change. And the further we get away from it, I think I do have a concern that we'll lose appreciation for it is really the right word, appreciation?
[00:18:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And I want to be honest with myself in that I respect what everyone thinks, but do I truly value someone else's perspective as much as mine? If there is somebody, a lot of people, they want to work 8 hours a day, then go home and do those other hobies that they enjoy, and every day that's what they want. They're fine with that.
Am I truly okay with that? Do I truly respect that as much as my own opinion? Probably not. And that's like, I'm open to it. I'm open to all views and I want to hear it and I want to get better at understanding. But I think the tricky part is, and I'd love to get your feedback on that. On this, is for someone like you, who does have a lot of employees, you have very high standards and expectations. And you do have some employees that they want to work 40 hours and live their lives. Right. And it's not like Arnold packaging is a part of their life. It's not their life, which you wouldn't want it to be. But it's like your expectations and your standards and then also being okay with other people's perspective of hard work or what that means to them and it being different than yours, how do you balance those expectations and standards versus valuing and respecting their position on what we're calling hard work? Because that's hard. And before you. I'm going to expose.
[00:19:57] Speaker B: Give me another minute to.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: No, I'm going to expose myself because I say that this is where I'm going with it. I say that it's okay. And everybody has their own. I am hard on my teammates and I expect a lot from them. And I'm not sure that what I'm saying and what I do always match. They don't.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: Right. So there's a lot there to unpack. So I'll try to eat this elephant.
[00:20:23] Speaker A: And I got to have to get better, is it that you have to hire people that align with that mindset or.
I don't know the answer. I'm searching.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: I think one thing that came to mind as you asked me the question was, yes, a lot of people, right. 75 in the big scheme is not a lot of people. But I think there's one thing that's great about that, is that there are lots of different roles in the organization and lots of different roles to play. And different roles require a different level of contribution and commitment, every single one important. Like if you look at our values, commitment is one of our values, right? I mean, that's something that we sing from the Hills team first. I mean, any number of those. So one thing that is great about a company with the width that ours has is that there are lots of roles. And I truly do. I mean, we've got an amazing operations team and an amazing. I'll just pick one, right. Our transportation team, the guys that come in and deliver, they literally deliver, right.
And they are incredibly valuable and they come at a particular time, they have a role to fill and they go home. And I love it. And they're the very best at any number of roles around here. So I think it does vary a little bit differently. And I will say, unfortunately for the people, I would just say the closer you get to me on the chart, probably the more significantly the expectations are or change. And obviously, too, there's benefit there, right? Whether it's pay and compensation and the quantity of life. And I think that's an interesting battle or a conversation too. I mean, where do you draw the line between quantity of life and quality of life? Because certainly no one has any problem, especially coming out in the most recent time where there's been so much wage and labor inflation. Nobody has any problem with coming in and asking for more money, I. E. Quantity of life. But then also there being this balance between not sacrificing quality of life either. So that's, I think, the thing that I struggle with the most. But I will say I'm really aware and intentional, more so than at any time in my career, about how I like to work and what we just talked about, we love to do, which.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Is all the time, we're always on.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: Sure. We're never off and being smart and sensitive and appropriate about the boundaries that I create for. I'm just say my direct reports, the five people that work directly for me. And I think it comes with communication, I think it comes with expectation, setting out of the gate. And I will tell you that coming out of the pandemic, we have had to reset expectations in some spots where had to say, well, hold on a minute. Remember you started here in 2014 before we had this thing that shut down the world. We didn't change in that process. I mean, did we learn some new tricks? Yes. Are we a better company? Yes. Did we survive and even thrive in the moment? Yes. But there's also some things that got us here in our 90 years, like you don't exist for 90 years by accident. So there's also some things that got us, that make us who we are, if you will, that I've had to go back and reset expectations around and say, let's not forget that this is what got us here. And the vast majority of what we considered normal pre pandemic, we're going to return to that. Now. Let me throw one in there. That's awesome. Partying, socializing and having fun. That's one that I've been very intentional as I've watched our bigger companies, whether that be customers or really suppliers, that pull things back in the pandemic, whether that be travel, entertainment. I mean, we have suppliers now. I mean, they won't show up with a pack of sandwiches from Potbelly. That's how far they've pulled back. Next week alone, we have three social events, one with customers, one with salespeople, and one with our executive team. So that's the other flip side of it, too, and saying, hey, look, we're returning to what we know normal to be having started in 1933. But part of that is we're also not going to continue to hold the funds back on social events and getting together and repairing what I sense was separation and even disconnection in the middle of the pandemic. So that's part of the trade. I mean, I also think that you can have quality of life in the office, right, partying and or socializing with your teammates if you create the right culture and environment. It shouldn't be that you have to go somewhere else or you have to leave the workplace to have a great time and in very enjoyable experience. And I think that's something that might have been lost. And I know we are very intentionally, the building that we built, which started prior to the pandemic, was about just that. I mean, we have walls that roll up. We can party in a big part of our space. And I'm not using party that word as being reckless, but I mean being very intentional about bringing the social aspect into our business. And I think that's something that might be causing some of this mutual exclusivity as it relates to this balance, because for so long, it's almost like, oh, that place equals work grind. This place home or wherever that's not there equals relaxation. Balance. I think as employers and or businesses probably ought to be shining the focus back on bringing those together where it wouldn't be like Google, where you'd set it up such that they'd never want to leave, but somewhere in the middle is the appropriate balance. If we're going to talk about balance, maybe we talk about that balance where you have the workplace, not exclusively a workplace. There's a lot of fun that happens there, too. We've had some interesting conversations with our team lately. As we bring on new people and expand and get bigger, they, my team, this is not me talking, are so hyper protective of the culture and the fun that it is. They don't want to become some stodgy, rigid, exclusively by the book. I'm not saying invite in risk or be reckless, but exclusively by the book organization, where if you're having fun, you're probably breaking ten rules. So I'm going to stop because I have dominated here.
[00:26:31] Speaker A: But no, there's a lot of thoughts that's a good way to almost disrupt this work life balance.
It's important, but as big of a focal point, if you're saying the work and the life, you're blurring the lines a little bit. Because when you come, you're enjoying your eight to ten hour day, however much time you spend, I think that would be a really great way to almost rid the conversation of this work life. Or at least I don't know, because you're right. Right now they're so separate. It's like I've got to work the 8 hours and then get away to get my oasis and my relaxation. How could we create environments, all of us as business owners for our teammates, where part of that balance is during your workday?
[00:27:27] Speaker B: Well, I think the old saying, the fish rots at the head, which means that a lot of this is defined from the top, right? The culture. So part of it is, and this is something that I think you have to be careful about being disingenuous about. If you like working like that, right?
[00:27:44] Speaker A: You like working like what?
[00:27:46] Speaker B: You like that longer day, that more intense work experience. You truly enjoy what you do. And to the point I keep saying intense, but I don't feel like it's intense. I think one thing that you can do is show up happy, right?
If you allegedly are happy with working as much as you do, and you're completely bought into your organization, then you should be damn happy every day, and you should have a smile on your face and be bouncing down the halls. It would be disingenuous or inauthentic to ever say that and then be an asshole to your team because you were tired or, I don't know, felt like because you had a challenging week physically, like I did with travel, and then you showed up like an asshole. But allegedly, you loved it. So I think that's one piece, right, that you have control of. I have control of is setting the standard for fun positivity another one of our value words? I think that's one thing that you can do, because it would be disingenuous to say I love working my ass off and then coming to be a total jerk to the organization or be anything but showing how happy you are doing what you're doing. If that's truly how you feel about it. That's one I can think of.
[00:28:56] Speaker A: Yeah. I listened to an entire podcast the other day about charisma, and I think that's a really good word. As you were talking, I was like, charisma is probably the right word here. So I think there's so much we could talk about making the work environment a particular way positive.
[00:29:14] Speaker B: Let me give you one. You walk into our place right now. There's music on all the time. That was never, and I still don't experience it when I go into other places. But when we built this building, we were very intentional about our audio and video. We were intentional about chickfila ice. Like, our ice maker makes chick fil a ice. And that was, like, number two on the list, which is. But, like, those are some little things. When you walk into our place, Karen, our director of customer experience, which really also makes her director of everything experience because she's the DJ in here. When you come in the front door, you might hear queen, you might hear backstreet boys. And it's just an interesting vibe. When you walk in, you're like, okay, where am I? And that's a cool start, I think, to the experience here.
[00:29:55] Speaker A: So let's get away from really, there are many, many episodes we could talk about of what to do in the workplace, in the culture, to create more of that, what we're calling balance during the workday. So there's that component. I would like to get back to this idea of constructive versus destructive, harmful habit versus. Is it dedication to work hard? And your thoughts on that? I will take the lead here. And my thoughts are not everybody has to work hard and long every day.
But I will say there is something to, it's been proven, there's a lot of data. The more intentional, effective hours you put into something practice, the better you're going to get. So you have to understand if you truly, and I think people that do truly want something that are obsessed are going to put those long, hard hours in because they understand they will get there quicker. And that's what it takes to be the best. So you cannot come from the mindset of wanting work life balance, but also expect to be the best at a particular field. You just can't. It doesn't work like that. You might have some rare freak like athlete or somebody that doesn't put quite the hours in, but they are exceptions for the most part. If you want to be the best, you must be obsessed and you must work longer and harder than your counterparts. Yet we're in this world where people feel entitled or are wondering why they're not at the top or they're not competing at the top levels. And this is really fascinating to me because I think it's very black and white. I think you can see the correlation, but they don't match. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that.
I believe in that and I'm also seeing right now where I'll pass it to you. I have a lot of thoughts, but.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: I'll like you once you continue with your thoughts.
[00:32:05] Speaker A: No, because I could just keep going. I want to toss the ball.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: So a few different thoughts.
I believe we have a tendency to separate things. So can you think of.
I tend to lean on golf a lot, so I'll just pick some of the guys at the top of their game right now. Scotty Scheffler, John Rom and Roy McElroy, just a perennial beast on the golf course.
Do you think they have work life balance?
[00:32:30] Speaker A: No.
[00:32:31] Speaker B: That's right. I mean, I imagine.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: And so what did they sacrifice for that?
[00:32:34] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:32:35] Speaker A: Knowingly sacrifice. Probably some family time.
If not family time, friend time. For sure.
[00:32:42] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:32:42] Speaker A: Social.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: Oh, well, don't worry. Their friends are next to them on the driving range. Right. So they reached.
[00:32:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:32:49] Speaker B: I think my point though is that you would watch that and we celebrate the hell out of athletes, right? I mean, few people, few countries celebrate athletes like we do, especially football and basketball. I mean, it seems like those are big revenue sports. So my point here is that if you looked at the number of hours that just pick Roy McElroy, not an american spends awake. What percentage of that time is spent perfecting his craft? What percent of that time is spent with whatever one would consider the balance, the opposite of that. He'd probably laugh at you and be like, what's this? What are you even talking about? This is about as harmonious or synergistic as it could be.
So that's okay, right? That's never pulled into a conversation about anything like that.
But the business component of it or the rest of it is in high, high scrutiny right now. So that's just an interesting comparison where there are certain things that we just adore about how they work. Baseball players play 162 games. They start in March. The earliest players, and they finish in October. What do you think their work life balance looks like? Being on the road, 81 games a year, plus some extra travel. We celebrate the hell out of that. But the idea that the guy or girl in the corner office works like that and they're out of their mind, that doesn't reconcile with me. What do you think?
[00:34:17] Speaker A: Agree?
No, I totally agree with that. And I think people would say to us, it's been said and not to us, to a ton of people that have the same mindset and work like us, or we work like them and say, is that sustainable? How do you not burn out? And you could say, well, yeah, I've been doing it for 30 years and I'm working just as hard and I'm just as inspired. And so that could be, maybe it does take, I don't know if you've got to love what you're doing, but I do think you've got to believe in it. And I do think you've got to be absolutely obsessed for it to be sustainable. I can tell you I'm not going to be waking up at 03:00 a.m. And forever and doing all these things. If I don't absolutely believe in what I'm doing, I believe it serves a purpose, it inspires me, and I do love it, but I think that has to be a part of it. So it's pretty unrealistic to expect anyone to do it, do whatever it is, if they don't find true meaning or purpose or derive that from it. Do you believe that?
[00:35:34] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you think that's wholeheartedly?
[00:35:37] Speaker A: Because now there are two sides of the table that purpose is bullshit and it's not a real thing, which I believe people need. Purpose.
[00:35:43] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah, purpose. Hope. That's another great word.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: Hope is a great word.
[00:35:48] Speaker B: Great word. I mean, when I listen to people, or when I'm talking to people around here, if I'm concerned, for example, they're having a rough time or they've gotten some hard feedback. I'm very aware of our next conversations that we have.
Looking for hope, like talking about future and so on and so forth. You made a very poignant comment to me this week because there are ebbs and flows. Let's be very clear, we don't love 100% of our jobs 100% of the time, right? It's not perfect. Our last episode was, and I think my lead in on the post was, you think this is perfect? It is far from perfect and it is far from pretty. So there's any number of times we don't just whistle along down the yellow brick road 24/7 that would be total bullshit. But there are things that you can do inside of that experience that you do love, where you reinvent. You brought up this podcast this week.
You have to share it.
[00:36:43] Speaker A: So in my core business, Tagler construction and supply, I was just having a week where I was just not feeling inspired and it was hard to usually knocking off twelve hour days and consistently like working through it.
It's easy. I don't even think about it. I was struggling with it for this week, but injecting the podcast and not just sitting here at this table for 1 hour, thinking behind it, writing descriptions, thinking about what our next topics are going to be, doing teasers, that really ignited a different spark in me. And then it was refreshing and it's what I needed to go back to my job, my main job of tcs and running a great think. And we've talked about this before, that has been my key in life, to avoiding burnout and sustaining something.
It is circling the core thing, tagler construction supply or whatever that is in your life with peripheral things that are synergistic and supportive, but that also fulfill my I am a creative person and I need that fulfilled. So if I can circle what can sometimes be very monotonous and repetitive and somewhat just boring or transactional, if I'm having a week like that, but I've got things around it like this podcast that support it and that are really creative and inspiring, then it keeps me going. And that is so important to have those interjections. And because I love business and my business so much that I want those other things to be something to do with it or help it.
I don't need to get energy from something totally different and that has nothing to do with it. It's typically something that is helping the business.
I was thinking about something else in my head in the same way that we're going to be taking up as a hobby. But my first thought was, but it could also be help the business from a relationship standpoint.
[00:38:54] Speaker B: Right.
[00:38:54] Speaker A: So I'm always thinking about that. But, yeah, I think you've got to have these other little things that you can interject into your life that can keep you inspired, and that is how you keep going. And you never get burnt out. I have never experienced burnout. I've experienced weeks where it's been hard. Never real burnout. And I don't think you have either.
[00:39:14] Speaker B: No burnout. No. But one step short of that for me is called a rut. And I have been in ruts. I've been in ruts before.
[00:39:20] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:39:21] Speaker B: And ruts are hard. And I would go back to, I think my father didn't tie this together for me. I wish he would have because it would have saved me a bunch of time figuring it out. But if he'd said, hey, man, whenever you get in a rut, just go make a sales call. Right? Yeah, that would have been easy. I'm like, oh, okay. This is one of those rut things, and I know what to do. I'll just go make a sales call. It took me a while to tie that together, but when I'm in a rut or things feel like they're off, then my go to is what my core is, is to go sell something. So that's been something that's helpful.
[00:39:49] Speaker A: Beyond that, I think for you, it's.
[00:39:51] Speaker B: Really about learning, meeting people. Right.
That's the payoff.
[00:39:55] Speaker A: So it's not about the sale. It's about going to talk to great people or having a great conversation or learning or innovating, fixing, solving, which we talked about. Business is what really gets me going, what inspires me and innovation for you. So it's like going back to that core. Yeah. And I think that's so important.
[00:40:14] Speaker B: So one thing I do want to talk about, that's really important. If I do have concern about. Back to our main topic.
[00:40:20] Speaker A: Right? Yeah.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: If I do have concern about this in spots, it is what we're teaching some of our young people whose ears are wide open and listening to this and making sure that they somehow don't get forced to be part of the polar, if this topic ultimately ends up being polarized, making sure that they don't get caught on the wrong side of the polarization. Because I do think there's this americanism thing that we do where we tend to lose sight of the other countries in the world. I mean, you only have to read one article deep to find something that China is doing to upset and disrupt the United States. And that's just saying that we really need to be smart about taking our eye off the ball, because there's other countries that want what we have. They want to come into our basket and take our eggs, and they are willing to outwork us, out think us. They are willing to do in spots.
[00:41:15] Speaker A: And even cheat, I was going to say ethically, unethically.
[00:41:18] Speaker B: They will steal intellectual property.
They will take unethical routes to outcompete us. So if I can't out think you and I can't outwork you, well, cheat is always an option. I can always cheat. So that's the thing that I'm aware of, is that we just get focused into or on our own little echo chamber. And that's the worst, right? Because when you polarize things, just take politics for a quick second. You got this half over here, and they're in their own little echo chamber proliferating their views exclusively. And then you've got the other side, whichever side that is, and they're in their own little echo chamber proliferating their views. And then they come out and they're completely different, diametrically opposed. And that's the concern, is that we take our eye off the ball, we get so american centric or so in our own little ecosphere that we forget about the rest of the planet that has its own agenda and doing its own things. And the other thing I'm really sensitive when I listen to some of this contribution is any of this conversation about certain people's inability to keep up or hack it.
Let me finish my thought. And then I. Because I. Sure.
[00:42:31] Speaker A: I didn't mean to cut you.
[00:42:32] Speaker B: No.
[00:42:32] Speaker A: Thought you were done. I thought that was up, period.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: Is any part of this trying to slow it down because you can't keep up? That's the thing I'm also sensitive to. It's like, yeah, you know what? Don't do that. Don't do that. Stay down here with me. It's really safe down here. You know what? Let's even start a war with those people that want that. That's bullshit. You can't possibly want that. Stay here where it's safe. That's something that I'm listening for, is. Is any part of this. I need to slow it down because I either don't want to or can't keep up. And that's something that I'm sensitive to and aware of. And as I tried to read under the lines to think, all right, what is this?
What is the origin of this particular.
[00:43:12] Speaker A: Thought process that is real and plentiful that is happening all over the place? And being able to identify when that is happening is very important.
It's a lot in the same realm as figuring out who cares about you and who doesn't. So when people are coming to you, whomever that may be, and know, you got to slow down, like you got to take a break, you got to get r. And like, are they saying that because they really care about Mick Arnold and want the best for you, or is it because you're too far ahead, just like you said? And the comparison, that person does not want to be honest and say, I can't keep up or they're comparing and it's a way to slow you down so they can lessen that gap.
And maybe all those thoughts clearly aren't going through in their head. They're not thinking it out like that, but that's subconsciously, I don't know. That's what's happening. It's like you are comfortable and content here and thus you want everyone else to be. And when somebody is up here running hard at grinding, as we call it, that makes other people uncomfortable. And you know why? Because you have to acknowledge that you may not be putting in the same work, either because you don't want it bad enough or you're not capable. And being honest with yourself is hard, right? And sometimes you just got to say, yeah, Mick Arnold works a hell of a lot harder than I am and I cannot expect to be where he is and as accomplished as he is, period. And people can't do that. So what are they going to do? They're going to bring you down. They're going to talk negatively. And I'm saying you. This could be anybody.
[00:45:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you plural, every you.
[00:45:11] Speaker A: We're saying Mick, I'm going to bring Mick down. I'm going to talk about why he sucks. I'm going to talk about why he creates environments that are this or that. And it's just like acknowledging that I am not willing to do that. And that's okay.
[00:45:28] Speaker B: It's more than okay.
[00:45:29] Speaker A: And listen, there are many things I have not been able to probably acknowledge about myself. I try to be really honest with myself, I really do. But I know I haven't gotten fully there and there are things I haven't yet to admit about myself that are true. It's hard to do. It's really freaking hard.
[00:45:46] Speaker B: I'll give you an example. This is a beat myself up moment. In our executive meetings, we have personal goals and I've had on there singing for the longest time. Right. I mean, you know how I feel about it. I had some exposure with our youngest daughter and we went to school of rock together and I really enjoyed it. I truly did. And it has been on my list for years now. Years.
And I won't put in the work. I will not put in the work. There's always something that's more important. There's a reason I can't take that hour to go to whatever place that would be where I could get coaching, right? Because if you're going to be good at something, you're going to need some coaching. But I won't put in the time. I will not do the hard work that it takes because I'm not going to suck at it. And maybe that's it.
I don't play much golf anymore because I'm wholly committed here. But that's an example of me saying, man, you know what? Look at my actions. I am not willing to commit the time to do that particular thing that I deemed important or enjoyable or something. But clearly it's not. Or it's not there yet because I haven't put in the work. And that's how I know what I value. Because if I value it, I will put in the work.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: An interesting thought we were talking about on another episode, 4000 weeks, and listening to that podcast.
He said, write out your priorities and what you really want in life and make a short list. Make a long list. And the top five, like you really want to accomplish those top five. How do you make that happen? And a lot of people would say, well, let me get rid of the bottom 30.
And he argued like, no, you get rid of, there's, let's call it top three. You have to get rid of priority four and five because they're interesting and appealing enough that they will take some of your time away. We're like, 30 might be like singing to you. It's like, oh, I'll get there. It's really not taking time away. So it's actually like you have to say no to two things that you really care about to make sure the other three did. And that was an interesting thought. And I think there's some merit to that. That's an interesting idea. Yeah. And for me, I have tried to do that because I always want to do everything and I always spread myself thin and I've really tried to identify what are the three buckets that I want to put all my time and energy to, because I want them to be really freaking good. I want to be the best. I am dedicated to being the best. And it's running the business, expanding the business and everything that comes with that.
It's now this podcast and obviously family. But what was the third I had? Now I can't even remember my own priority.
[00:48:24] Speaker B: In addition to Taylor construction.
[00:48:25] Speaker A: No, that's what I just said. The business, that's a one business podcast.
[00:48:30] Speaker B: Family. There's three.
[00:48:31] Speaker A: Yeah, those are my three buckets.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: Unless there's a.
[00:48:34] Speaker A: The other one I have is I always want to be very fit. That's a priority to me. And mentally, physically fit. But sure, I will not let that those four buckets.
[00:48:45] Speaker B: Well, this is a big contribution to your mental fitness. Totally. I believe this might be your mental.
[00:48:50] Speaker A: Treadmill, but I was getting a lot of speaking opportunities and all kinds of that, which I'm still doing it interspersingly. But where am I going? I'm going to have to say no to a lot of that if I'm going to fill these buckets. It's saying no to a lot of the things that you're really interested in, and that's hard.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: Or at least it's saying not yet, and being very intentional about not yet, which is part and parcel to not taking your eye off of it, but making sure it's far enough in the back. It wouldn't be a distraction. It's like a cross training shoe. I don't want to be a cross training shoe that's good at everything but great at nothing.
I don't want to be a cross training shoe. I want to be a specialized training shoe.
[00:49:32] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:49:32] Speaker B: And then if, as my career progresses and evolves, or let's just say a responsibility that I have right now, I'm able to eliminate, automate or delegate, create some disposable time, then I might specialize in one of those things that's off on the edge right now when I have more bandwidth or capacity to do so. So I'm aware of it. I said, man, the second I get some time, it's going right there and I can't wait for it. But for now, no, because that would make me a cross training shoe.
[00:49:58] Speaker A: And also if you have additional bandwidth, which we never do and we're never going to, wouldn't you just take that bandwidth and put it into your bucket? One, two, three.
[00:50:08] Speaker B: Those have been my choices so far.
[00:50:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:10] Speaker B: Right. Absolutely.
I didn't know what to do five years ago, so I started automation division. Right. I mean, that's an internal reinvention where you're like, well, I don't know. I'm a little more curious than what we're doing right now. What can we get into? This is one of those for us, right? Yeah.
[00:50:27] Speaker A: And selfishly, I would say, if you are listening and you enjoy this, please do subscribe, because we are really committed to this and a, we need a little bit of confirmation and inspiration, but it will allow us to make this thing much better when you have more people following along and tell a friend.
[00:50:47] Speaker B: Because referral business is the best business.
[00:50:49] Speaker A: Yes. Now, one other thing I did want to talk about is, as we're talking about working hard and achieving these goals and accomplishing milestones, do you feel like you're getting joy out of these things, or when is it enough? Is it ever enough? Are the goalpost always moving where you are now? I can assure you, not assure you, I'll talk about me where I am now. Ten years ago, if you would have said, this is where you'll be, this is what you'll be making financially, which is, this is where all of it, this is who you'll be married to.
I would have been freaking perfect.
[00:51:39] Speaker B: Yeah. It would have felt like a pull.
[00:51:41] Speaker A: To the shoulder moment, right? Yes.
But now I'm like, now I'm here. I'm like, oh, I got much bigger dreams and goals. The goalposts, when do they stop moving? And I have to constantly go back to my why? And for me, I've realized there is nothing that I'm doing that is ever about winning.
There's no end game. Could you imagine if marriage was about winning? Right? The goal is for it to go on forever, happily, just like the business. It's like I want it to be sustainable forever.
As I'm saying, my goalpost and my vision, my goals, they are always going to be moving. But I don't think there's ever an end game.
So maybe I'm answering my own question as maybe it will never be enough. I don't know. Will it ever be enough? Will I ever be completely content?
I don't know. And maybe, I don't think so. I'm happy. I find a lot of joy at what I do, but I don't know if I'll ever be content.
[00:52:44] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I know, because I think that would be.
What if you're just content all the time?
[00:52:49] Speaker A: What about peace?
[00:52:50] Speaker B: What if you're content all the time? What if you are real time content and that's what feeds the journey? I love the journey. I mean, I think we're having a journey versus a destination conversation. Maybe someone would be like, oh, wait, what's the destination? I've got to work to this finite thing that I've defined in my head versus what if every time, for example, the earth being round, every time you flat back to the polarization, what if every time you crept a little bit further and you got to the next horizon because you were on the round part of it, you saw something that was really fascinating, you just couldn't wait to keep on going, and it just continued because it was round. What's wrong with that?
[00:53:32] Speaker A: Well, let me ask you a question. If I am allegedly always content, I'm not sure I'm going to have that spark, incentive, motivation to keep going. Do you need a bit of discontentment to is content finite?
[00:53:54] Speaker B: I don't suggest the word content is finite.
[00:53:56] Speaker A: Almost a rhetorical question. But I asked it.
[00:54:00] Speaker B: The word content is right, so I get it. If you view content as done, then wrong word, right?
[00:54:09] Speaker A: Can I change the word?
[00:54:10] Speaker B: If you view it as perpetually happy, then maybe that's a different look.
[00:54:13] Speaker A: Peace, okay? Yeah.
[00:54:16] Speaker B: As long as that's not finite and it's in continuum that works.
[00:54:20] Speaker A: Are you at peace? Are you ever at peace?
[00:54:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Yes. Because if the opposite of that is turmoil, then I don't ever feel like I'm in turmoil. So if the opposite of peace is turmoil, then yeah, I absolutely feel at peace.
I have a lot to do.
[00:54:39] Speaker A: Are your goalposts always going to be moving? Is it ever going to be enough for you?
[00:54:47] Speaker B: It's already enough and I love it. It's already enough, right? It is already enough. There's not this thing that I'm striving for.
[00:54:55] Speaker A: You truly mean that?
[00:54:56] Speaker B: I do. Okay. And I know that by my actions because I have certainly had opportunities to pull over along the way. Could have sold the business multiple times. Multiple times. And most recently during the pandemic when there was all of that private equity capital sloshing around, just overpaying for businesses. My door was being blown up. So I can tell you that because my first thing would be, well, what did I do? What was a demonstration, Mick? Show me a demonstration that tells me what you're saying is authentic. It's that I could have sold the business multiple times for silly multiples and chose not to contrary, chose to double down on investment, internally staying. So I can confidently say, based on the demonstration, that I'm being honest with you.
[00:55:43] Speaker A: So if you are content and if you are at peace, and if it is enough, how do you keep the intensity going and why?
[00:55:54] Speaker B: Because I love the journey. Because I love the journey right now. What a wild time to be alive. If you look at innovation and what's going on, if you are a person that you are just hyper curious and you're a life learner and you are driven by what's next, and I imagine you had said this in the we put a man on the moon. I would imagine you'd say it all the time. And the people 100 years from now look back and go, look at those dummies. Thought a lot was wow. They figured out generative AI, big f and deal. We look back and go, you put a man on the moon. Awesome. All due respect, big f and deal, we put one on there daily. We shoot 17 rockets a day. So, I mean, I think if you're a life learner and you have this curiosity component, then you're just jazzed about what is going to present tomorrow every single day. And I am.
[00:56:49] Speaker A: So your curiosity is enough to keep because a lot of people believe, and they see this, it's not just a belief, they see this in people, is that the highest achievers are often the people that are never at peace, that think they're always fighting, not being good enough. They had a childhood that was tough, whatever that is. A lot of times that results in the highest achievers.
But I don't believe that's exclusive and I don't believe it's necessary. And I would say someone like you, you are saying that it's the curiosity that gets you there and that is the driving force. It's not the rest of it that I just mentioned.
[00:57:33] Speaker B: Well, if there's that chip component, yes, I still have a little bit of that chip and some of that from along the way. We can talk about childhoods along the way. But yes, I still have a little bit of that chip. But I've been working hard through brain coaching and so on and so forth to reset, right? To not get stuck on that or live in yesterday, especially for people that didn't know me then. So I've worked hard and intentionally on that reset and thinking, well, you're no longer the kid that was quite a bit overweight and took a lot of criticism for. So I think that is part of it. Yeah, there's still that chip and that strive, but that's not nearly the driver that it was a decade ago or two decades ago or in the past. So I am at peace with that part. And therefore I'm comfortable in saying that, yeah, it is that interest and curiosity that really does keep me going.
[00:58:28] Speaker A: And I think we're both at peace with having an imbalance. We don't have work life balance. We don't want work life balance. It's not something we strive for, it's not something we need.
The imbalance is okay for us.
[00:58:45] Speaker B: Isn't that called synergy and harmony?
That's what the experience of it is. I mean, let's pick really cool, positive words like synergy and harmony versus. If you don't have this seesaw thing, then you're blowing it, right?
[00:58:57] Speaker A: I'm actually saying that intentionally.
That doesn't have to be a negative thing for me. I will say, and I'm not sure if you have this or not, I just feel so fortunate that in childhood and what my parents gave to me and being healthy, all these things I was put being born in America, all these things, born in such a privileged condition and position that it almost scares me not to just maximize that potential. And if I don't, if I leave anything on the table, if I don't leave it all on the field, which means working as hard as I do every single day, I will not have been what I consider successful. And that is what terrifies me and keeps me going.
But I don't feel like I'm dragged either. I feel like I'm pushing forward rather than being dragged. But that is there if I'm being honest.
[01:00:06] Speaker B: Well, look, I know you well enough. That would be to not feel grateful, right? If you didn't show up that way every day, that would be the opposite of how grateful you are for what you have. And that's a big driver for you. And how you show up is being grateful or what is the absolute opposite of entitled, right? I mean, those are the things I know that drive you is like, man, I got a shot. And at no point am I about to waste this shot by not working my ass off. Somebody might out think me along the way. That's fine. That's absolutely going to happen. But man, they're not going to get me because they outwork me. And if they outwork me, then that could be part and parcel to me, not being grateful for the opportunities that I had. And that's a big part of how you show up, at least in my observation.
[01:00:48] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, so much of what I do is not for my parents in that I'm gifting them anything.
It's that payback in gratitude.
I am so grateful. I think about it constantly, like what they gave me. I will do everything to give back to them and the world, and I cannot let a single bit of that go to waste.
[01:01:15] Speaker B: We know what I felt. So we have a full day ahead of us, and, man, we're going to probably ride this way for a few more hours.
[01:01:22] Speaker A: Yes. And now I'm just leaving feeling really grateful.
[01:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah, me too.
[01:01:25] Speaker A: So I'm not sure we hit on all of it as hard as we wanted to, but I think it was a great conversation and we can continue it. And it's thought provoking.
[01:01:34] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
This will be woven into everything because this topic is completely at play, and you can expect us to touch in onto it as it evolves. And there's more information that comes out, at least our experiences of it and what we're seeing in our travels.
[01:01:53] Speaker A: The last comment I'll make, which I think is so great about these conversations, is it makes me more aware of the things I suck at. And it's also like when somebody, as we're talking values, maybe hard work differently or is different than me in it, it does make me take a step back and say, hold on a second. Think about it. Set a passing judgment, which is human nature. Take a second. Just because we sat here and talked about it for an hour, they deserve that. You deserve that. Take that second. Think about it.
[01:02:24] Speaker B: Yeah, totally agree. Well, all right. Let's go kill another day. Tommy, thank you, as always. Cheers.
