Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: I love when we do podcasts, when I've been out in the field for a day and my job is all over the place these days, especially between growth and certainly the last few years have been challenging and getting the right people into the organization. And we've had some turnover. There's been no question whether it's been retirements. People that have just, they did well and were very smart about their finances and had the ability to retire. We had eight of those in the pandemic, and they just decided they had had enough. And then we had some other folks that wanted to pursue different things and different industries, or we had people walk away from their roles and go from example, from a vp role into a sales rep role, which was right for them because they wanted to relocate. And it has me working more project than ever, but it still means that I get to get out in the field. And today was one of my favorite days. My father always used to say, when you don't know what to do, go make a sales call. And that still is very true in that you're out with the customers and you see your products in action, you see their manufacturing processes in action, and there's just a great feeling about it. I think sometimes when you get stuck inside for a while, especially in the types of roles that we have, you can get it in your own head a little bit or you get a little too bogged down in things that might be too minutiae. And it's nice to just get out in the field and see things working and also interact with people that I really love that are customers or longtime customers. We have great conversations and they invite us into their business and we're truly a partner. Like, they're looking to learn what we know and what we've picked up in our travels. And those are my favorite days for sure.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, a lot of times right now, what's required of me is to be behind a computer, and it's not what I love, and it's not what I think I'm necessarily the best at. I don't think it's my strength. And it's very noticeable that when I have days where I'm interacting with people more, my team or customers or vendors, I feel different at the end of the day.
I feel energized at the end of the day, as opposed to if I'm in the office grinding. Now, granted, that day where I'm behind the computer might be what's needed and it might be the most productive day but when I'm with people, it's different. And it might be. I've thought about this a lot. Like, why is that?
It could be the most packed jam day, but I leave feeling so great for my conversations. Maybe that feeds into. Maybe I really am an extrovert and it just fills my cup. And I need that because I've been told that if you're a true introvert, a day like that, while it can be a great thing, you feel like you're left with nothing. You're empty, you need to rest, you need to re energize. Where I feel the opposite. So maybe it has something to do with that, but it's a noticeable difference. And it's something that I hope with a little bit more time and effort put into the businesses and the processes that I can do more of, because it's really what's missing for me. And it adds a little bit of stress, I would say, for sure.
[00:03:37] Speaker A: Yeah. I also think, and this is me observing you, and we have these conversations a lot. So nothing is really uncharted between us because we talk about things that are stressors. But I also know that in those moments when I am in very tasky mode trying to get things out, whether I'm working on a proposal because I have my sales hat on that day, or I'm working on something that could be internal when I have my president hat on, it could be a policy or something, I tend to set the bar extra high about delivery, and I don't know that anyone else has that expectation of me but me. And I think I get stuck in this mode where I'm self imposing all of these deadlines. Where does the person on the other side, whoever that might be in this moment, do they care about 12 hours or do they care about 24 hours? I don't know if they do or they don't. And I really don't stop to think about it. I just pile it on where nothing different happened. I was in the field today, and there were some things that were sitting, of course, just by virtue of driving, which it's hard to be really productive driving anymore, and it was fine. So it's interesting, but I understand exactly what you say, and I do come back energized. And for that, I will probably work a little later tonight. I'll have some extra energy and my productivity will come back in addition to working some additional hours. But it won't just be exclusively more input. My output will get better because of my mind space or where I am after having a day like that.
[00:05:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
I've just had three very different thoughts on your comments, so I'm trying to figure out which direction to go. And I might go all three, but the one comment about, do I have 12 hours versus 24 versus 36, whatever that looks like. In my space, where a lot of what we sell is commodity materials, whether it's two x fours or a piece of pipe, there's not a lot of differentiators. And for us, I've always thought our differentiator is that we are first to respond. And I'm hard on my team about that. If I see an email that goes left for more than an hour, as my team can attest to, it's not pretty. And so I bear that in mind, and that's a lot of pressure and walking that fine line of driving yourself to insanity, but also keeping with, like, this is why we have that edge. So that's one thing. And I think you've got to know the situation. You've got to be aware, and that's challenging, but it comes with time and understanding of the project and the customer.
That's one thing. And then as far as the interaction with people and we've talked about on last episode, we want to be very vulnerable on here. And one thing I want to be really mindful of and good at is talking about the challenges as we're going through them, not in hindsight, not after I figure them out. It's like, okay, this is really one of my struggles right now. And as a business that did almost $48 million in revenue last year, I'm still working in the billing, in the purchase orders, in the quotes. Like, I know everything down to the penny. That's a problem. Right. And that's on me for not digging in to the processes and just streamlining the business, automating it, delegating it, hiring more. And so now I'm trying to climb out of a hole. And while we still have it all together, eventually we won't. So I know that I've got it. And we've had this conversation like, hey, babe, I'm going to have to say no to everything out of the business right now. I'm going to have to work the weekends. I've got to get out of this. But that's short term, because we've got long term things that we want to do together. So it's recognizing that and actually doing something about it, which I haven't done enough in seven years.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: Yeah, but I think you have to give yourself a little bit of a break in that when you're in those rapid growth moments, it's reasonable to make sure that it's sustainable. You wouldn't just run out and add a bunch of people the second you saw a little bit of a blip on the screen as it relates to sales, you would wait a moment to see if it's sustainable. And in the moment it means you work more, right, just like I do. Or when we go on those things, wait, if it's at the ops level, we might work some more overtime or whatever that looks like. But I don't think it's unreasonable that you wouldn't work a little harder in the short term. But once you're sure it's sustainable, then you do need to do something right because you can't wear yourself out personally in those moments. And I think the challenge is what do you do? And from an.org chart perspective, or where do I make this investment inside of my team that's truly going to make the change that I'm looking for. In this case, for you, it's how do I get away from some of the more administrative type activities? Because you are one of the rainmaker rainmakers that I've met. So the idea that you would be pushing too much paper at a particular point, that would keep you away from your superpower, which is that then you risk it becoming detrimental to the company's growth long term. But I think it's really hard to know, what do I do with the York chart? What is the right hire? And if the answer is if I can't automate through it and I have to delegate, and that means I'm going to delegate to someone that's not here yet. What does that role look like? What's that part of the playbook, and who's that player and what plays? Am I going to ask them to run? I think that's the hard part.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: It is, again, something I'm going to stop saying. It's something we talk about all the time. I think everybody gets that because I was just about to say that. I was like, wow, I've said that three times and it's been ten minutes.
[00:09:19] Speaker A: Plus I'll think we have no original thoughts. Actually, it's the contrary. It's just that we never stop talking to each other. I think that's the cool part.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: Well, we're all recycling all the same thoughts anyway.
But it's just that cycle.
You get in, you're growing, right? And so you're finding yourself working more on the business and you're so busy you've got to work more on the business that you don't have time to work on the business. And then it's just this constant cycle that you can't get out of.
And at some point it's just like, yeah, I could take a step back and maybe that does mean the business slows for a second, which the best business owners do, and I still have not been able to do. And I'm not saying it's always required, but a lot of times it is. And something fascinating. And by the way, we had a topic in mind which we haven't touched, which maybe we'll, maybe we won't, but this is just what's on our mind. And I like it. But I've been listening to a lot of podcasts, which I do when I exercise or just walk, and it's really been interesting. I've listened to several younger ceos than usual and all of them have managed to take businesses and eventually they're the founder, but then they put in someone in place of themselves as a CEO and they recognize very early that they are, and I believe all three or four of them that I listened to figured out that their strong point was they were a brand, they were great at branding and marketing, and so they were smart enough at a fairly young age to replace themselves with the CEO and people that knew the finances better, the ops, and then they put themselves in a position where they really strived. I was thinking to myself, like, wow, that's such maturity at such a young age to recognize that.
Not to say that I'm there, or I think that's required, but just moves like that of sitting down and saying, I'm really good at this and I'm not so good at this, or I really like this and I don't like that. Do I need to bring in an equal or somebody of management? What does that look like? And that awareness is everything, but it takes a step back in time and you've got to give it the time and effort.
That's hard to find. Impossible almost.
[00:11:40] Speaker A: And also too, I think it's important to remember that a lot of people that are on the podcast, they are there because they got there. There's any number of people that attempted the same thing that failed miserably.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: 100%.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: People will never know about 100%. And that's an interesting mindset. And the thing that a lot of people probably don't think about when you're going through those growth phases, when you finally decide to make that investment, you take the pay cut. We don't have investors, right? Or we don't have just endless resources in the way of cash or whatever it be. So when you do decide as a small business owner to make that investment, it comes directly out of whatever compensation you might be able to take at the end of the year, whether that's a bonus or something, because you generally don't cut your other employees, right? I mean, so if it requires x number or tens of thousands of dollars to bring in that particular person, then that's directly coming out of your potential compensation. I think that's pieces that people don't really think about or understand, and that's why it would have you working those crazy hours. It's nothing for us at times to put in an 80 hours week or a 70 hours week, especially if you feel like it's something that's a little more not project in nature, but just need to get it over the hump or I know around here whether we're starting an automation division or something, I will do the vast majority of the heavy lifting to make sure that it's viable, sustainable, and then look to bring someone in like a VP of automation, as we did along the way to run that particular part of the business. But I think it would be easy just be like, yeah, well, I'll just bring somebody in and so on and so forth. Yeah, that's great, but you have to have the financial resources to do that. And just something for our audience to consider if you're not in this particular seat. Is that comes directly out of your compensation or ownership's compensation as part of that investment?
[00:13:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it's certainly not always feasible, and it sounds easier, but it's just something I've never, and again, not that it's right for me, but it's just interesting to see how aware some people are and how they handle that.
[00:13:40] Speaker A: I also wonder if that's part of, because I do know I consume more real time news, the CNBCs of the world. You tend to consume more of the podcast. So I listen to what you tell me about it, and it seems like in general those are younger podcast participants, or if they're being interviewed at a particular time. I wonder if there's something about the view of younger entrepreneurs or people that came through maybe a little differently than I did. Having been raised by a boomer who was a grinder, who had a micromanager chokehold on the vast majority of things, I wonder if that's something and just the way businesses present, or maybe even the resources that are available like YouTube and this constant ability to learn and consume information, I wonder if that has a different slant on it than maybe how I was taught business along the way, perhaps.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: It seems to be a common thread there. I don't know. It's exclusively in this context I'm talking about. It has been younger, but a lot of what I listen to is also the other end of the spectrum of very wise and experienced. But yeah, for this particular topic, it does seem to be like a common thread there amongst younger founders.
[00:14:57] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll have to keep it on that. And I love at some point, as we continue to produce these, if they're ideas or if there's something that we're missing. Right. Sometimes I think we can be pretty head down or so leaned in. There are blind spots that might seem pretty simple for other people. Like, no, you dumb dumbs, here's what you're missing. Or I would love to get that input or have someone say that to us along the way or just a slightly different perspective that would open that up to us. That would be interesting.
[00:15:24] Speaker B: Well, that is the beauty of the technology that we have now with, especially podcasts where you can listen to exclusively if you choose, which I have been doing as I go through these struggles is founders and ceos across all generations and cultures and diverse industries, because you learn, you get some ideas. It's like, wow, I never thought of it like that. And the most powerful thing isn't like somebody running through their tips or like we can all read books. It's, hey, I did this, I experienced this. And here's my perspective. Because what it's done is at least it's opened my lens. It's made my lens a little bit broader, my perspective a little bit wider, made me think of things in a different way. And that power of sharing stories and experiences, that is the greatest lesson, I believe. So that's been valuable. But of course, you got to experience it yourself. And there's nuances to every business, to mine, to yours, that we've got to figure out as we're going through it real time.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Yeah, you got to get beaten up.
It would be nice to have someone there to pick you up and wipe you off and stick you back in the game like you did, like your coaches did when you were a kid or whatever those different situations were. I was watching CNBC today. So as you know, over consumer of CNBC and some really interesting conversations. So, for example, there was talk about Tucker Carlson getting let go from Fox yesterday. And the one guy that was on, positioned it as, oh, good for Tucker. And the reason was that, and the statistic was, on a great night, his show would pull 2.7 million viewers. But on a good night, Joe Rogan's show will pull 11 million listeners. So it's not even close as it relates to a typical network news show.
And the question becomes, well, what does cable or what do those different mediums or media have to do to continue to be relevant versus. I mean, that would suggest to me that there's going to be a Tucker Carlson or a Don Lemon who was let go from CNN podcast in the very foreseeable future, and that could go into the 1112 13, who knows what it is? But this particular medium seems to have it all over typical or old school broadcast, which is interesting to watch that evolve.
[00:17:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't want to belabor this point because people are talking about it everywhere, but, yeah, certainly independent media is changing the game and people are drawn to it for sure.
[00:18:07] Speaker A: And the big part, too, was that on demand piece. Right. That was one of the things that this particular person hit on was, until you solve for that on demand component, it's going to be difficult to compete with what's going on out there. And then there was a great entree into manufacturing. And it's nice for once, and it hasn't happened a lot in my life, but to hear people talking about manufacturing again, and I think the pandemic awakened a lot of people to just how few of our goods are actually made here in the United States. And I would even say more aggressively, Maryland is very incredibly underserved from a manufacturing perspective. But when you can't get a first responder glove or you can't get a gown, because before you even get to pharmaceuticals or some of those other really critical products, it starts to open your eyes and saying, oh, my goodness, we are very much too reliant on other people and in this case, other countries for critical goods that we just take for granted. We've just been outsourcing that type of activity for so long in the name of price that, man, when it comes to roost in the form of a pandemic, everybody's eyes snap open.
[00:19:24] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
So I do want to go back and dig in a little bit more, although this isn't what we were going to talk about. I like getting into our struggles a bit as we're going through it. And I think the great thing about posing these questions and these struggles early on is that with every episode, we can give a little bit more feedback of here's what I did, here's what worked, here's what didn't, here's where it is now. I think that would be really helpful as we're trying these solutions and throwing things at the wall.
So I would love to know, and I think I know, but I'm sure the audience would love to know right now if I could say, what is your biggest struggle as a business owner? What are you trying to solve for? What's creating the most stress, whether that's you stress or distress, like we talk about in your life, and what are the steps, ideally, that you plan to take to try to solve some of this?
[00:20:35] Speaker A: The biggest problem right now is continuing to get the right people in the right seats. So I was touching a little bit earlier just on some of the turnover that we've experienced and whether that be retirements or people electing different roles. We had a sales rep decide to go work with his son. And again, no falter or issues with Arnold packaging, but that was a once in a lifetime opportunity that he had to take. So if you just add up the people between retirements and that we lost 140 some years of experience in the company. And at the same time, I was in the process of building out my direct reports from three to five. So the market caught me a little bit flat footed as there was a decrease in people at Arnold packaging. And I say talent. I mean, we have talented people everywhere. So anytime someone leaves their talents, there's a talent loss. And it's really been a struggle in the last two or three years to identify and hire the right people for each of those roles, whether that be technical expertise for their specific spot, or chemistry or alignment. There's a particular way that Arnold packaging shows up. You hit on it, right? That piece where a couple minutes ago you said, and my team knows, or you're on them. Whether it's about urgency or how tegler differentiates, it's that speed of reply. And getting back first with the best answer is a big differentiator. It's all about the people. It always will be. I don't care if you have the most mechanized organization in the world. If you're General Motors and you have yellow robots all over, it's still about the people. It's about the people that run them. It's about the vision that comes from the people that ultimately drives the business, that interacts with your customers, the market, that help identify the next opportunities that poke you when it's time to pivot. In case you're asleep at the wheel. But it's about people still. We had a sales rep pass away in the last two weeks. I mean, as many wild stories as you could come up with in the last three years, and we've been at this for 90 years, and I've been at it 30 of those 90. Any of the wildest stories you could come up with we've experienced in the last three years. So the mantra for this year is to stabilize and optimize.
When you go through wild growth, either through the pandemic. We were growing into the pandemic. You can have this get it out the door at all cost type feel, and you're not as efficient. And we made a very conscious decision as the market started to slow and continues to slow, to really get on top of stabilizing and optimizing. But it's really hard to stabilize when you have challenges with your people. You've got to get somebody into the role. You've got to get them acclimated to your particular culture. And then they have to learn the nuts and bolts, right? Let's just say you nail it on all some of the intangibles, the culture, the work ethic, you still have to get them trained to do the nuts and bolts work inside of your company. And until that starts to happen, you have little to no chance of stabilizing the business. And until you stabilize, you sure can't optimize. And that's the biggest thing that we're working on right now. How about you?
[00:23:51] Speaker B: Quick question that I did want to ask while you were talking. Do you think that struggle of finding the right people is industry specific to manufacturing, or does it make it more challenging than another industry per se?
[00:24:06] Speaker A: If it does, it's just because, in general, because of what the US has been going through for such a long time now. Just for example, in Maryland, only 4% of Marylanders work in manufacturing. So if I asked you what a doctor did or a lawyer did, and you were eight or nine years old, you have a pretty good idea. There are people that you're associated with. You know them. Maybe your friend's parents have those occupations. Manufacturing is tougher in that regard. Just because there isn't that overt demonstration, it's statistically unlikely that your friend's parents work in manufacturing, and our daughters, their dad, works in manufacturing. So that means there's only three more out of the next 99. So it just means that you might have to explain longer. You might have to really get into the attractions and let particular applicants see it, and that's why we work as hard as we do at junior achievement and starting to try to build out these workforces. But if there's anything that's tough, if it's getting someone to make a cross move from a different industry, that can be harder, which just means it reduces the pool of potential candidates. So just from a numbers game, right. Statistically, your chances of success are a little bit lower, and that's the extra type of work that you have to put into it to get that level of candidate that you're looking for. We've been successful. We bought people from in and around the space. But if I think about my very best, the best people I've worked with, they had some type of manufacturing or industrial experience along the way. They at least had something coming in. They didn't come from a completely unrelated industry. Now, accounting and finance is a little different in that regard. It is a little different in that regard. But some of the pure distribution or manufacturing roles, it's certainly helpful in both. Right. Their ability to come in and be effective sooner than later and the ability to recruit, hire, and train because there's some familiarity with the particular space makes it a little easier, too.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes sense.
[00:26:17] Speaker A: How about on the construction side? I think there's so many similarities, and I think it's why we get along with the same people. You come to a manufacturing event, or I go to a construction event, and it's comfortable.
[00:26:31] Speaker B: Familiar.
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Yes, familiar. You talk about the blue collar component. People get up, they work hard, they're nice, they're transparent. Um, not always nice.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: Sometimes brutally honest, but loyal to a handshake.
[00:26:44] Speaker A: But that's okay.
[00:26:46] Speaker B: Prefer it?
[00:26:46] Speaker A: I would take that over. A smile and a stab in the back every day.
What have you found? The transition to be in recruiting and hiring into the construction side?
[00:26:58] Speaker B: We're small, so I haven't done a ton of hiring more lately than ever.
And I would say there's actually a lot of great talent out there. You hear that? There's not. Now, also, I'm hiring for more. We're a supplier, right. So I'm not hiring labor that's going into the field and installing. I don't need, like, specialized trade labor, which I think is harder. I think it's more limited. So I think the pool is generally bigger when I'm looking for project managers or sales managers, whatever you want to call it. When I'm looking for more executive positions, it's just different. And I found that the talent is out there. However, it does require just some more training when you bring somebody on as a project manager in construction. But I think we haven't struggled that much. But I'm probably not the right person to ask just because I've done limited hiring. But I think the talent is out there and I think there's actually a lot of young talent who is willing to come in and learn and is curious and willing to work. So that's been my personal experience. But I will tell you, everybody I talk to in the construction industry, on both the customer side of things and the vendor, is always looking for great people. So that may say otherwise, that maybe there is a little bit of a shortage of great talent because we're all searching for that talent and we're all pulling for it.
[00:28:29] Speaker A: Yeah. But also too, statistically speaking, half of the workforce is female. And I don't like manufacturing.
It seems that both industries are slow, too slow to entice and welcome females into the industry. What have you seen better change? Same. Tell me about what are you seeing in the female side in the construction markets?
[00:28:55] Speaker B: Yeah, slight increase. I don't know what the current percentage is of females in construction.
I believe it's about 14%, but I need to check that statistic and of that 14% in that C suite level is less than 1%.
I think I know there are more females coming into the industry, but not enough. And this is something that I definitely want to do a separate episode on because there's so much to talk about and not just about construction. Females in male dominated industries, let's just call it that. And we don't do a good enough job of bringing awareness, of highlighting the opportunity, of welcoming and making it easier. All women see is either they don't see anything at all, a, the first problem, or b, they see barriers to entry. And what I have seen on the other side is the pure, just so many advantages of being a female. Of course, as a female business owner, I have the opportunity. We're a woman owned business, so I can leverage that in competitive contracts when they're minority requirements.
If we're neck and neck, we have the advantage because we have that certificate. That's one. But you know, that's, that's for business owners that can make their companies woman owned. For anyone else that's just interested, I can tell you that there is so much opportunity for women to come in and generally speaking, people are really receptive to it. What I found is there's a ton of guys that have become my mentors that have been in the industry 50 60 years. And they're willing to sit down and share their stories and their experiences because they can tell I'm genuinely interested.
And that has been just, I've learned so much. I've just soaked it up like a sponge. But I've felt very welcomed. Are there times where I felt dismissed or do I get called Mr. On the regular via email or Bret, or Bret.
Are there people that are shocked? Just like the other day, oh my God, you're a female. It's the first, of course, yes, all the time, constantly. But I don't find most of it is with ill intent, just sheer surprise because of the statistics in the way they are. So we've just got to get better at bringing an awareness. It's just changed my life. Being in the industry and you're a female, you come in, you automatically get noticed.
That in itself, everybody wants to be noticed, right? By virtue of being the only female. By default, people remember your face and your name. Advantage one, just bringing a different perspective on things and a different skill set. Females and males don't want a broad brush, but we have different skill sets and each is valuable in their own way. So you're bringing a new skill set to a company that most likely needs it. So I could continue on this path, but that's what I'm seeing.
But we need to get better. We need to get better. And the last thing I'll add is you have seen a major uptick in the last few years of let's get more women on boards, let's get more women on board seats, let's get more women in different industries that are male dominated.
And while that's great, and I support that and I think it's helpful and going to be good for everybody, I think there's a lot of box checking going on. I don't think it's because people truly believe that. I think it's, hey, let's say we did this or we've got to look inclusive here, but until we really believe it and we're doing it for the right reasons and we're seeing the true benefits, nothing's really going to change.
[00:32:54] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. Just you hit right on it. I mean, big companies spending billions of dollars in marketing to do one thing, differentiate. And the idea that to come into the space, construction, for sure, and I think construction might have fewer females in manufacturing at this point.
That's no statistical backing. But the idea that just walking in the room as a female would give you what so many companies are in desperate search of differentiation is interesting.
It's not easy to take that step. I mean, it takes a certain amount of moxie and you got to try that out in a great way, whether it was your lumberyard experience and general contractor experience. But I think if females would just. If you could find females that just align with that. I just want to. Differentiation or different is something that's very attractive to me. You just have to walk in the room of a construction company or a job site and you've got it. You've got it right out of the gate. And manufacturing is the same way. I will say back to my happy stroll today inside of a customer, I am starting to notice a lot more females on the manufacturing floor. In engineering roles, in quality assurance roles, which I think are great. And again, not broad brushing.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: Right, the broad brushing.
[00:34:20] Speaker A: But yeah, I'm a boy. I can say it. Females attention to detail is better. I mean, I'm a boy. If a scroll runs by then I'm probably not going to get whatever done I was working on. So I think there are incredibly valuable roles, and I agree with you that there is some box checking going on. But I do know that done correctly, if you have the right differentiation and the right diversity, whether it's in the boardroom or on the team or whatever your team is, it doesn't matter. Just by simply having all of those perspectives, your team is going to be better.
I will end up throwing around way too many military or sports analogies, hopefully more sports. But if you're building a team, you don't need three first basemen and two left fielders. Right. You want one great person in each position. And if they're pulled in expecting the bunt, you better have the rest of the team watching their back. And if you were to build diversity that looked like that, then I think you'd really be onto it. Versus box checking or making the annual report look great because you have all different colors and genders in there for the sake of it. If you've truly nailed it, then I think those companies are destined for absolute greatness.
[00:35:32] Speaker B: Well, let's be very clear. Diversity and inclusion are not the same.
And I think that's a really important statement for business owners or management people that are doing the hiring or who are creating a culture. Just because you have people of all genders and races and ethnic backgrounds doesn't mean you're inclusive.
[00:35:57] Speaker A: True.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: That's a very different thing. And I think we've got to be mindful of that. And this just brings. I was listening to a podcast probably a few weeks ago. And I was stoked about it because this guy, while he's gotten more into the social media influential realm, he started in construction and he's still a construction owner. He's built a really big business, which is great because I don't have the opportunity to hear a lot of ceos or founders in the construction business.
We're not really social media forward most of the time.
So I was so excited about it. And one of the things he leads off with is, yeah, we have a lot of women in the business and we're bringing a lot of women. And going on this tangent, I'm like, well, this is awesome. Then he goes on to say that the interviewer said, well, how many women do you have in your company? And he goes on to say, like, three or four out of 80. That's the lowest ratio I've ever heard of any construction company I know, right? And then he goes on to say that he believes women are great, the three that he's bragging about having, because they don't have egos and they are team players. And I'm just thinking to myself, that's why.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: Right?
[00:37:24] Speaker B: Because to me, you know what that sounds like?
[00:37:26] Speaker A: Doormat.
[00:37:27] Speaker B: Doormat. It sounds a, like doormat B, like, we're complying with the man. We're complying with what you want. So it's easy for you.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: Right.
[00:37:36] Speaker B: And it may not have been intended that way, but that's what I heard, and I can tell you that's what a lot of females are hearing.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: And that is just so not true.
I am female, and I am going to go toe to toe with you. And I don't think that description of a lot of females, especially in management positions, would agree with that. I don't even think that's true. I don't even think it's descriptive, but maybe that's who he's hiring. But just like you were on this platform, he was on a huge platform, and that is your representation of women in construction. I was like, whether people hear this or don't, I simply want to get out there on a podcast so we can change that narrative and tell you how it actually is, because that is a poor representation. He's the only one that people are listening to right now on this. So it just, if you can't tell, frustrated me to no end. And I've thought about it constantly since.
[00:38:34] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a level of ignorance. And I mean that in the truest form of the word. Not knowing what you don't know or tone deaf, same thing. But yeah, I mean, meanwhile, you have. Half of your company are females, right?
And certainly here in both of our divisions, we have incredibly bright and awesome females, and they're as leaned in and tenacious and fearless as anybody else in the entire organization.
Listen, too. I think females have to step up and do that also, right?
[00:39:09] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:39:10] Speaker A: I think certain females, if they saw that was the culture, they wouldn't go there. Right. I mean, if you were just going to show up and comply, then any number of great females, anybody but females in particular, like, well, I don't want to do this. If you need another first baseman, I'm not coming here. If you just want another yes. Person to agree with what you're saying and give the corporate report a better look when they take all of our pictures or on the website. A lot of females that don't want to be part of that either, which is great. We just need more of that. I don't mean in an indignant way. Right. Or an obstinate way, but I'm a valuable resource, and you hired me on here to play my position, and I intend to play it, and I'm going to play it hard, too. And I think that's amazing. That's what right looks like.
[00:39:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's not lost on me that women haven't had as much experience. Through the many years in construction, there's been very few, relatively speaking, females that have been in the field that have put together building blocks of the building. So just by virtue of that, yeah, there are going to be men, a lot more men that have a lot more experience, that are a lot more knowledgeable. But that's okay. That doesn't mean we can't come. Like, I recognize that. I recognize that.
I'm working with many superintendents or Foreman's in the field who have way more experience than me, but I also know what I'm good at, and there are some things that I know more than that. It may not be how to build the foundation of the building, but we've got a role to play, and it's significant. So I think females can come in. Listen, you don't have to be the most experienced to make a massive difference. Know what you're good at. Pull a seat up to the table. And don't just have a seat, have a voice at the table and make it heard. So we need to just change the narrative one step at a time.
[00:41:07] Speaker A: But also the dimensions are changing. Technology is pushing all of these businesses, and even the more traditional businesses, manufacturing has never been pushed harder by technology. Construction is in the same place. So when technology is taking out some of the brute force that used to exist in construction and some of the brute force that used to exist in manufacturing, whether it was simply picking up heavy things because you worked on a production line, technology is going to change that. Those future jobs are going to be about the person that programs the machine that picks up that piece or that drives that hardware or whatever it is. So that dirty, dingy, dangerous stuff is going by the wayside as fast as possible. And the reason is it's not productive, right? That's the reason that there's only one simple explanation, and it's productivity. Anytime you can hold the line on input, which is manpower, and you can improve output, then you're going to go in that direction. And for the United States to be competitive in a global workforce and marketplace, that productivity's got to be there. So never a better time for females to enter when it comes to programming, engineering, code writing, with what's going on with AI at this particular point, AI has been in the industrial space for a very long time. It's not front and center, but the cameras that we use, for example, to inspect or validate. All we're doing is showing a camera what right looks like a gazillion times and asking us to tell it when it's wrong and it looks smart. Right. They know when you're smiling. Well, no, they don't show the machine a picture of you smiling a billion times. It knows when you're not smiling. It doesn't know if you're sad, but it knows that you're not smiling. And smiling equals happy. So all of those, the lids coming off of all of that, and the smartest organizations are going to get really wide in their hiring and recruitment and attraction capabilities, and they're going to pick up the best and the brightest in those spaces. And man, in my travels and who we interview around here, females are in those spaces a lot. And you only have to look at the education standards and statistics on who's in college right now, there's more coming and more coming. So I think construction is positioned beautifully. If they'll get their head out of their tails and spots and get their head out of their ass and start leveraging those pieces, because you can't do it without it. I mean, there's any number of historical demonstrations and examples like Japan who didn't leverage the really smart other part of their population called females. And they were a mighty force for a split second and they were gone. So I hope we're smarter than that. I really do.
[00:43:58] Speaker B: That's a really good point. I mean, technology can do a number of things. It can widen the opportunity for females. It can also expedite the learning and thus closing that gap that I was talking about between male and female knowledge just by virtue of us not being in the industry as long. So that's a really good point that I haven't spent too much time thinking about, but I should.
[00:44:19] Speaker A: Yeah, well, look, you're not going to be subject to those paradigms, right? If paradigms could hold you back simply by coming in with a very different perspective, there's going to be something to learn from not doing it the way it used to be done. And that's value, right? Maybe. Wrong, maybe, but it's definitely going to be different. And whoever can tap into that and turn that into a productive force is going to be the next disruptor for sure.
[00:44:44] Speaker B: Now, I'm going to take a little bit of a transition here, and the one thing I do want to talk about a little bit is I do think it's important that we hit on some of our personal relationship as it relates to some of these topics, not just the business. So I want to start with business and I'll tell you where I'm going, but I'm going to preface it as start with the business aspect of this and then just move on to the personal.
Do you believe, and I do, in the situation I was telling you about with this interviewee and interviewer that I'm so frustrated with, do you think one of the reasons there may not be a lot of females in certain companies or in certain roles, do you think. And I'm not suggesting it does. This is a question. There's a part of that almost emasculation where it's like, I'm a male, we know best, hear me, war. Is there any competitive. And that could be. I'm talking inside the business, and then we'll move on to the relationship side of things and how that can play out, which maybe it's a bit more relative in that realm, but do you think there's part of that where males still want to be at the helm and there's almost like we can't be challenged or taken down by a female? That is emasculation. It says it exactly as it is. What do you think? Or do you think that's not at play?
[00:46:07] Speaker A: No, I think it's in play.
Yeah, of course it is.
We are where we are. And we got here, how we got here, and whether that's from an evolution perspective or the last, just look at 100 years of business, right?
It's only been recently, and especially if you look at the big scheme, right, if you look at thousands of years, it's only recently that we've gotten here and had amazing, capable females. And yeah, there are a lot of males that are slow to change. And if you look at just the generations that are in the workforce, and this is just simply comparing the people that are working right now, whether it's the boomer generation, the one that's older than me, and how they were brought up and their worldview as it relates to business because of how they were brought up. And then if you go then a few generations later, the group that's entering the workforce now, which I think is Generation Z, and I don't get hung up on all the generational names just to acknowledge that if you look at the 60 or 80 years that are between those age groups, how much change has taken place. Yeah, it's going to be slow.
And I promise you there are older men, since we're talking about the emasculation portion, there are older men in business or on the planet, period, that are just never going to let go of that. It's going to be what it is. And as a species, we'll just have to evolve out of that component. Certain people just won't be able to get there in their particular lifetime. And I'm sure it's even a little bit laced in the generation behind it, which is mine. I see it, and I would like to hope that as we continue to evolve and newer segments of the workforce that went to school with Tommy, our esteemed producer here, that went to school with very smart and driven and competent and even loud in spots in a good way females, that that's not only acceptable, it's the norm. It's absolutely the norm. So it wouldn't be to look and say, why is Brit so loud? That's annoying. It wouldn't be anything like that. I mean, that idea.
[00:48:29] Speaker B: I prefer assertive, babe.
[00:48:31] Speaker A: No, I'm going there. I'm going there. We talk to our daughters about it all the time. The idea that an assertive male is a leader and an assertive female is bossy. Right? But if you watch them on video, for example, they would have the exact same traits. But one gets branded this way and one gets branded that way. So, yeah, I absolutely think it's in there. But at the same time, I'm very encouraged by the number of female ceos that I see in and around the space and anything from Buffalo Wild Wings was one of my favorite ceos along the way. IBM, Pepsi, General Motors, so on and so forth. So it is absolutely changing.
I don't know that. It's unfortunate that I'd love to know those names that I just put out of those companies. How many of our viewers know who I'm talking about? Did you know that General Motors CEO is a female? I think that there's not as much noise around it. I also think that male ceos on a spot tend to be noisy and maybe that is part of that emasculation process, that roaring thing if you will.
That still goes on. Yeah, I absolutely think it still goes on.
I'm not sure. I don't think at my age I'm going to see the death of it. I don't think we'll evolve through it. But we do have to do, especially as dads of females, we've got to do a better job of recharting what right looks like and what's acceptable.
[00:49:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I see two very different dynamics. I'm not sure that's the correct word. But at play within my own company, I get asked it all the time.
Is it weird, is it awkward to basically manage and run a company when you've got a older people working for you and older males working for you? And you would think that would be. But it's just not at all. I mean people come, they come to your company because they respect you and it's like gender doesn't even matter, at least to me. And I don't feel like everybody treats me with such respect, whether it's male or female. And that's not at play at all within my company. But certainly when I'm dealing with other business owners outside of that, whether it be on our customer vendors, whoever it is, I've gotten dismissed or people don't even respond sometimes that's real when they know you're a female. Until they realize I can help them, then everything changes real quickly. So that's interesting observation.
It would be easy to make at that point. Screw you. But I think being aware of it and especially the generational differences that you speak to and almost expecting it at times it's like, it's fine, I get it and it is what it is, but it's also motivation to change.
[00:51:29] Speaker A: Yeah, listen, and you're brilliant about just hanging in there, right? It's fine, I'm not going anywhere. And I think the people that do that, I can only imagine they don't know that you've done it on your own. I mean, I certainly experienced that. I mean, I thought the opposite side of that, albeit a male. I thought the silver spoon fell into your lap. Yeah, exactly.
Arnold acts like he hit a home run when he was born on third know. That's one of my favorites, and that's what I ran into.
You were born there, and that's the way it is. So when it came to managing, obviously I was a male, but when it came to managing older people, that was certainly a challenge.
Like you, though, the ones that got it, that had watched me grow up in the business and watched me work my ass off and put in the time, they were not only okay with it, they were supportive of it. There were any number of other ones that were just never going to be okay with it. And our alignment, or lack of alignment was evident very quickly, and they weren't with the organization that long, and I didn't do anything about it. They ultimately self selected out by their behavior or whatever, but that would be another piece of that type of silver spoon type thing. You didn't earn it.
You're just a female in the business. So I probably had a similar feel in spots.
Just being assumed you are that way, which I think is called prejudice. Prejudging someone, just assuming they know who you are before they even get a chance to see how you show up is interesting.
[00:53:11] Speaker B: It's actually my favorite thing because, as you know, I like the hardest challenges, and I do not get just a thrill and so much adrenaline out of them. But when I come up across an older gent, the gray hair that's like this. Who is this female?
[00:53:28] Speaker A: Sweet, sweet little girl.
[00:53:29] Speaker B: Yes. Sweet, sweet little girl headpat, I'm like, oh, I'm going to make them love me. I'm going to make them love me.
[00:53:35] Speaker A: By outworking them.
[00:53:38] Speaker B: I can connect with anyone. I think when you deal with so many different people for a long time, it's practice just like anything else. So I'm so certain that once I can just talk to somebody, and usually it takes a face to face, I can break that barrier down so fast.
[00:53:56] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:53:56] Speaker B: So I love the challenge. So to me, I almost don't even recognize, like, hey, that guy's being asshole. I'm like, hey, we're going to be cool, and he's going to love me. It's just a challenge. And maybe that's my eternal optimist or that I'm just like this is great.
So maybe a good way to end on would be, how does that play out in relationships?
We are a little bit different in that we're both business owners and we both have what I would consider thriving businesses. But you're gonna have. And that's the only thing we can speak to. But certainly it would be different if you had one female that was a complete breadwinner over a male or in a relationship.
How do you experience it? And I will go into my experience with it as well. But having a strong female that is very hard headed and stubborn and assertive and can be loud and does things a certain way, I'm talking about myself and all the positives and negatives that go with a female business owner or a stronger female.
How do you feel about it? And obviously you felt aligned with it, but how do you feel aligned with it? And the last question, I've hit you with like five.
The last question, if you remember all these.
[00:55:32] Speaker A: Yeah, Tommy, I'm going to need some.
[00:55:33] Speaker B: Prompts, is, would your younger self be able to handle someone like me?
[00:55:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
Oh, boy. That's a lot.
So obviously I love it. And you're right, it is about the alignment. And just in that, if the alignment wasn't there, I would be alone a lot.
And I know you're in the same situation just because there's so much work that has to be done. And depending on where you are in your growth cycle or the size of the business, there are certain things that are only going to get done if you do them. You don't have a lot of extra bandwidth sitting around in the company to say, hey, Joe, when you're not doing anything, do you mind starting a new division or a new revenue stream? It's generally going to be owner driven or leadership driven. So the alignment is mandatory, right? I mean, if it weren't there, our relationship would have failed because I would have been absent. And I know you're saying this or shaking your head because you're saying the same thing in that if I weren't able to, I say, endure at times, there's endurance moments, right, where we're just out of cycle for a moment, where you've got a massive something going on, and I have some free time, and I'm like, hey, let's go play. And you're like, no, not playtime now. So there are some times when it's not aligned, but it's rare. It's really rare. And we seem to gel in that regard, or we're both ready to take a break. We finally say, you know what, 24 hours doesn't matter and we're going to get off the grid and we're going to do it together. But I would say, back to your original question, nothing else would be sustainable.
No one's going to tolerate what a business owner has to do. If you really want to be with your partner, right? If you're happy living a double life of sorts, and I don't mean post office bucks, double life, but I mean, if you're doing 100% of half and your partner is doing 100% of half, that's different than doing half of the whole. So if you're okay with that, and I've certainly experienced lots of relationships like that, friends and business associates, I was in one for a period of time and not in a bad way, but just doing 100% of half. And if you're okay with that, where your partner, your spouse, your significant other goes off doing their thing and they do it hard, head down, and you're okay being over here doing something else and maybe not seeing that person or only seeing them sparingly, then that could.
[00:58:04] Speaker B: Work, but it wouldn't work for me. No. And I imagine, to interject on your point, this happens probably in a ton of households where the women raise the children 100% and the men go and work and provide. And provide.
[00:58:20] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:58:22] Speaker B: But that wouldn't really fall into what we're talking about necessarily the emasculation of having a female that may come off as competitive or like I imagine the instance is you have a female that is also providing. That's probably the most common.
[00:58:40] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that part's great. I've never felt competitive with you in that example for 1 minute. I do believe we have this one plus one equals five thing, where your victories are my victories and vice versa. And even if you knocked it out of the park ten times bigger than anything I ever did, I'd still be ecstatic about it.
It might drive me at times. There are times when I want to be better, do better, yes, but not because it's to outdo you or ever be in competition with.
Think I just look at it and, hmm, that's impressive. McArnold wants to do that too. Not because he wants to better Britt Arnold or better anybody else. It's about McArnold driving and I think too having daughters, which I say is huge. It rounded my edges because. Back to one of your other questions. Could younger McArnold have done it? Boy, I don't know. That's a really hard question. And I don't know if I'm so easy with it, loving of it, good with it, if you will. Now, because I've done the other piece, the 100% of half, and I know that doesn't work for me. I'm sure it works for a lot of people.
Maybe because I experienced that I could only ever have it this way or nothing at all. I was certain I was just going to be alone.
And I think the girls have helped in that regard, too, in rounding my edges and having a lot higher emotional intelligence than I did. The idea of listening and not fixing. Right, that's a great one that we can tell a lot of males about along the way. When you run a business, you're a fixer, and if someone's in your doorway, it's because they have a problem and they need it solved. Well, could be that your daughter just wants you to listen because she had a bad day or the leg fell off of her Barbie doll or whatever her particular huge thing was, and she's giving an Emmy award winning performance over. They just want you to listen. And a big evolutionary moment for me was learning the difference between listening and fixing. So I think those are all just things that I put in my toolbox along the way. And it just made me more ready to be with you or a better partner than I would have been otherwise if I hadn't had those experiences and has put me in a position to celebrate all of your wins and never, ever feel competitive at all in that regard.
[01:01:21] Speaker B: I've never thought about this, but I am crazy, terrifyingly competitive almost with everyone. But you're one of the only people that I genuinely have never felt, ever in my life, competitive with. I've never really thought about that. I mean, we can have fun competition, but I've never. Ping pong table, not so much, but, like, real competition that causes any. I've never felt even an ounce of it. And as I'm thinking about it, maybe it really just comes down to if you have someone that genuinely supports you and really cares, really gives a shit, that that's all it takes to be like, I don't know. And we work so closely together in helping each other. A lot of your wins feel like mine. They're so shared, and those experiences are so shared.
[01:02:16] Speaker A: We're both there for the build up. That's a big part of it, right? It's not like you just come home. That's a big part of the difference. When if you're doing 100% of the half and you come home and you drop the win, it doesn't have nearly as much value or gravity as if you were there for the build up of the win. We're talking about when I identify said opportunity, whatever that is, and then to live through it. When you finally get the win and you've been taking your partner with you the entire time, or you've been right there in lockstep, it has a lot more gravity than if you just got the win dropped on you one day after work on a Friday when it closed or something along those lines. So I think that's a big part of it, is that we're in that space and not only just contributing, too. Right. There's conversations that go back and forth between us in those moments. Did you think about, did you try. Well, what did they say? Well, what did you say? There's almost a preparation component on the way to the win that we help each other with through that conversation.
[01:03:13] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm sure some of it has to do with a little bit.
Although we work together closely, we've got our own things that are different, but I'm not really sure that matters as much.
I'm really not. But I've been in other. Not a lot, but other long term relationships where it did feel competitive. And I told you I would purposely have really big, or what I thought at least were very big wins professionally that I wouldn't even share because I didn't want my significant other to feel bad about their situation or didn't want them to think I was bragging. And that's terrible spot. You can't even share your wins. And it took a toll.
[01:04:01] Speaker A: Talk about a double life, right?
[01:04:02] Speaker B: I mean, it was terrible and it really took a toll. And I guess I learned that's just something I can't be. But I do want to point out one thing in that I think the reason, which you didn't point out and maybe don't want to, maybe you're not aware of it, but the biggest difference is you've got to have a really strong and confident male that's super secure to be able to be in an environment with a strong female, where it works, that is the only way. And then a female has to have that support.
It's got to be free flowing.
Until that dynamic is there.
There will be a feeling of competition or masculation, I would say both parties, to be super secure.
[01:04:56] Speaker A: That's right.
[01:04:57] Speaker B: And then all of a sudden, you can have this really equal partnership. True partnership.
[01:05:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Totally agree. All right, well, that's awesome. And I think we do.
Today of all days, I think we purely demonstrated our equal partnership. That was a great conversation. I needed that, too. It's only Tuesday, but, man, this has been a week already.
[01:05:19] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm excited to keep this conversation going. And also, as I talked about, an extension of this conversation, but also continuing to talk about our progression of these challenges and of what we're going through and what we're doing to solve and what's not working to be, like, a true help to other people that are going through similar things. So that's what I really want to share in the raw us way, when it cuts the most and it hurts. Let's talk about it then. And let's talk about what we're doing as we go.
[01:05:57] Speaker A: Yeah. We'll share our losses, right? It won't have a social media look. We'll only share our good trips and our wins. We'll share our loss.
[01:06:04] Speaker B: Let's just hope there's more good than bad. I mean, that's the only thing we've got to hope for.
[01:06:09] Speaker A: I think we'll will it as such.
[01:06:14] Speaker B: Close our.
