Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Well, it's small business week, which I think is a great celebration. And I think you told me about that today. How'd you know?
[00:00:19] Speaker B: I found out 5 hours ago.
[00:00:20] Speaker A: Okay, good.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Yeah. We will have it on the calendar next year. It's worth celebrating.
[00:00:25] Speaker A: I think it's fair that we were too busy running small businesses to recognize that it was small business week. Maybe that's fair.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: We're going with that.
[00:00:32] Speaker A: We'll give ourselves a pass on that one. So, small business.
What a great way to make a living and contribute.
Tell me about the driver. Why start a small business?
I know some of the story, but, man, I would say that if you start a small business, and I didn't. Right? I mean, I'm fourth generation family biz, and I was fortunate enough to be born into a company that was existing. And it's different, right. I'm not sure if it's harder or easier, but it's certainly different. The challenges are probably a little bit different, but I didn't have to have the moxie to take the leap and actually start the company like you did. And I don't know, I imagine there would either be a couple of different factors where it was so enticing that you just had to do it. But I also imagine there's some spots for people, and I know your story, of course, but where it almost has, like, an elective surgery, feel you have to do something, or working for an organization or not calling the shots yourself, maybe that's a great way to say it is so excruciating that you would elect that surgery and you would go in that direction as hard as it could possibly be.
[00:01:44] Speaker B: Yes. To all of it.
I was forced into entrepreneurship in one way. So working with the employer that I was at prior to starting my business, we, you know, bumped heads is not the right, but it just. It just didn't work out. And from their standpoint, it wasn't working. And I knew it wasn't working, so it was a little bit of forced entrepreneurship. However, I also always knew I wanted to start my own business, and I had this goal of starting it before I turned 30. That was just a trivial number that I had picked in my head when I was very young, so I wasn't ready when I started, and it was certainly not my plan, immediate plan, but it had always been a goal. So a little bit of both. Now, I will say so many business owners say I knew I was going to be a business owner when I was five years old, and I had a lemonade stand I'd like to say that, but I don't think that's true about myself. I was playing soccer, so what I can say is I was always in leadership positions as being designated a captain on a lot of teams. So I was always in leadership roles. But I wouldn't say I knew I was going to be an entrepreneur at age 510, 1215. That wasn't necessarily I was just head down playing sports and learning some great leadership.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Well, let me ask you a question. So that word entrepreneur, was that even a word that was discussed a lot? I remember someone referred to my father, so my father would be 102 if he was alive, right? So he had experienced a lot. He'd been alive for a lot. But somewhere in my life with him, someone called him an entrepreneur, and I'm not sure he had actually experienced or thought about that word because he was pretty jazzed. I think he even looked it up and said, well, this entrepreneur thing, if I'm one of them, I'm pretty happy about it. Did you actually know what an entrepreneur was, or was it even called it then? Because I'm not sure that word was quite as prevalent then as it is now. Just by virtue of the fact that my father was one, but didn't even necessarily know that. I'm not sure that word was as prevalent. Did you even know that word then?
[00:03:52] Speaker B: No, I don't think so. It's definitely trendy now and then you have the different facets of it. Well, now you're a multi passionate entrepreneur in all these different variations.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: Entrepreneur segments now.
[00:04:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So, no, I didn't. But how I got there was being forced into there and then also having this feeling like it was right and I wanted to do it mixed with a really opportune time that on several different levels. One, I at that time was single, didn't have a family, and didn't have some of the other obligations and responsibilities that make it very challenging for a lot of people to start a business. That's one. Two, it was just in the marketplace. The timing of it and the opportunity from the construction standpoint, the MBE market, the projects that were going online, it just happened to be perfect timing.
As you know, to start a very successful business, you have to identify a problem and be able to solve a problem and have a niche. So that all came together in a way where I couldn't have imagined it up any better and took advantage of it. The bootstrapping part was incredibly hard. I am glad I went through that. But from the toll that takes on you mentally, which manifests physically as well, is really hard to describe. So, like you said, our trajectories to get here were different and hard on different levels where you came in and you're running a business, you have to take over from your father and turn a ship that has sailed in one direction for a long time. You have older family members, you're the youngest. So just different challenges, and I don't think one my journey harder than yours or vice versa.
[00:05:48] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:48] Speaker B: But interesting.
[00:05:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think from my side, it would be if there was a pressure. It wasn't exactly at that moment, the pressure of not being able to feed myself or my family. Right. The business in 1995, when I took over, was on very. On very solid footing. My father was incredibly conservative, so it wasn't like we had a lot of risk out there or any real leverage to speak of. So I didn't have that right. He didn't tie me with some massive debt service where the slightest little stumble could take us out. So I was left with some Runway there. I would say the pressure was there. I am taking over as fourth generation, and there's all the sayings. Well, third generation normally screws it up. So if you got past that, you got a shot. And I was just listening to that. I never really took it on as pressure, but I did know that when you have a patriarch of a family, a business pass, there's any number of people that are curious as to what's going to happen, and that's suppliers, customers, just friends in the market. But from the customer side, what I was always very sensitive to is, were they going to view that as a risk? Was Arnold's factory supplies, which is what it was called then. Was it a risk because the patriarch died, was junior going to be able to keep getting me my stuff? Because when you're in packaging, if there's no box, there's no shipment. If there's no shipment, our customers have no revenue. So I was very sensitive to that. Or at least that was my made up story, potentially, that the customers were wondering if junior was going to be able to keep making good on the promises. And maybe it was just that. Maybe they didn't even know my father passed. They just shot the po through and the stuff showed up. But that was the type of pressure that I felt. I mean, maybe a little different than yours.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: Well, I imagine with your father's reputation in the area, a lot of people did know, and I can also imagine that led to you fighting this stereotype, maybe stigma. I'm not sure if that's the right word of. Well, of, you know, he's going to get a shot. He's George's son, but what does he like? How long did you have to fight that? Until you felt like you had proved yourself? And I know you're probably every day still trying to. That's in your head, but how long did it take till you felt like, okay, everybody that once knew my father that we're still working with respects me. They know me. I feel good about this. I imagine you were fighting that, at least in your head, whether it was reality or not, for a long time, which is hard.
[00:08:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I would say so. Takeover at 25, and the core people were still there. My mother was still involved in the business at that time. I had a brother in law that was still involved in the business. Now, in the last month before my father passed away, which was in December of 95, my mother was out taking care of him, and my brother in law was out with a gallbladder or something. I don't recall exactly why he was in the hospital, but the lead up to that was me solo doing that work. Anyway, my mother had actually been out and she was a big contributor. We were a small company, so she had a big contributor. And when my father finally passed away on New Year's Eve, it meant my mother came back to work. So that was interesting. It's like, okay, there were four of us that were generally getting it done. Mother, father, me, brother in law. So my mother came back to work. So net net, it actually was helpful in that regard. Then my brother in law came back from his illness. So starting 95, it was pretty touch and go for a while and trying to get our legs under us and making sure that everybody was still committed and focused, it was pretty distracting. But I would say it wasn't until late 90s we toiled around. I think in retrospect is the word, you don't feel like you're toiling real time. But we toiled around probably until the late 90s when my brother in law exited. We can get into this on another day, but my brother in law exited. We had a disagreement over some execution problems, and he decided at that minute to leave the company. And that at least freed me up to start to build my own team. And I would say from that moment on, when I finally felt like I had the reins completely, then I was able to execute and start to build my own team. War rooms we talk about and we get into a lot, but I would say then at least I finally felt like I had the reins, and good, bad, or indifferent, I was going to do it. And if it failed, I was going to kill it. And if it succeeded, then the team and I were going to do it.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: I'm always curious about this. If you could pinpoint one thing, a lot of people are probably listening that they are part of a succession plan or they're there taking the reins over from their father or mother. What would you pinpoint as the single hardest part of that that you had to combat?
[00:10:43] Speaker A: Boy, that's a great question. I would say learning all of the different skill sets, I was very fortunate that I had been exposed to a lot of them. I started working in the business when I was young. I got a c plus when I was 13, and I started working that summer, but building out the rest of it, despite having gone to school, until you make collection calls and some of the accounting components that I wasn't involved in, yes, I sold in the summers, yes, I drove trucks. I did a lot of the execution or the more grunty part of the business, but I wasn't involved in the financial components the way I needed to be. So I would say some of rounding out that whole skill set that it took to be effective across the board and be trusted by your teammates and your personnel to say, all right, well, junior actually does understand the vast majority of what's going on here. So I would say the hardest thing was building out the rest of the skills that it took to really be effective for all of the different people in the company. Being able to speak the language of ops and sales and accounting and whatever all the other disciplines were that we had at that time.
[00:11:49] Speaker B: There are two trains of thought that I've heard business owners have. One is, I believe it's really important to be consistently good at everything inside the company and other business owners. And maybe this is just. They believe this because this is how they are. Want to be great at one or two things and then surround themselves. Everything else they're not good at, self admittedly, they surround themselves with the best. What has been your philosophy, or where do you think you fall on that spectrum?
[00:12:22] Speaker A: The second one, surround myself with the best. I mean, I tried to be very aware of knowing what I don't know, but at the same time, I'm not sure that you can be blind. I mean, your situation, for example, one of the things I'm always fascinated by that I didn't have to do. Making your first hire, you start by yourself.
Maybe if you have a partner, you've got whatever reason you and a person decide to start a business, then you two make your first hire or you go from two to three. I think that's different than going from one to two. So how long do you drive the business by yourself? And knowing we've talked about this in some other episodes, knowing that that first investment that you make, especially when you're bootstrapping the business, you're not going to take bank money and bring on your first employee, that whatever that investment is, it's coming directly out of your pay, that you're going to get paid that much less in the short term for you. What was the turning point where you decided to bring on that first employed rate?
There's only 24 hours a day and I'm working all of them, so the only way I can increase capacity is to bring someone. What was the turning point for you making that first hire?
[00:13:32] Speaker B: I would say that's the single most requested question I get from business owners that have just started a business and they're solo. Always. How do I know when to make my first hire? That first hire is by far the biggest jump after 2345 have all been exponentially easier than that first one because it's almost like when you make that first one, a, you've never paid payroll before, b, you've never had someone's livelihood under your control. And you're asking someone that may be leaving a very good job to believe in you and to leave a really good life, which that pressure, you almost become familiar with it. And it's also like you're not sure at that point if this is going to work and that's so scary. And then the dynamic of it is, for me, it was my sister, so then it's family. And I think a lot of people might think, or maybe not, it's easier. It would be easier being your family. For me, it was harder because I cared and loved this person so much. Not saying I wouldn't have felt like that for, I have that same pressure for anyone. But when it's your sister and that's like somebody you love more than anyone, it's like I can't do her wrong. You know what I mean?
[00:14:48] Speaker A: Well, you get past the trust piece, right? So there'd be any number of pieces of that first hire. So you'd like to think your sister at least gets you by the trust component versus hiring someone else, which just means there's different pressures, right? The pressure you now have to make sure, because if you're going outside and having done this before and building teams and recruiting and hiring away from big companies, massive companies, and selling the vision.
[00:15:12] Speaker B: Like you did, which she came from PayPal.
[00:15:13] Speaker A: That's right. So selling the vision. And then I think what you just said was, and there are times I'm like, holy hell, do I have this vision? Right? Because now this person's on the line, too. Am I really getting this right? Is that what you were thinking?
[00:15:24] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. But I think I waited. So, yes, different pressures.
I didn't have to worry about trust, especially when somebody. She does billing and accounting, so she's in the book. I'm past all that. I don't have to wonder who this person is. Am I going to find out? I know exactly who she is. I know exactly what she's going to bring to the table. But then there's the other side of it, like, you don't want to do them wrong. And I'm still trying to figure out myself if this business is going to make it. But I also waited so long, it was excruciating where I think if I were giving advice, I would have told myself to hire earlier. And I think so many business owners battle with that. And then they hire their first hire. They're like, why the hell did I wait so long? But you just don't know, right?
I take that back.
I wouldn't have done it differently, and I wouldn't tell anybody to, because the longer you stick it out and the more familiar you get with everything. So you have to learn the finances and accounting. You have to learn the insurance piece. For me, it was bonding, bonding. And the closer you stay in the business. That's why I would also tell small business owners, even if you do have cash laying around, which I didn't. Beyond just employees, everyone wants to outsource once they start getting really busy. Let me get a consultant in. Let me outsource this.
I would say, don't do that. I know it would be easy, but put the hours in, lose a few hours of sleep, get so intimate with your business, because the minute you don't do that, you just simply aren't as touch, in touch with what's going on. And I also believe as a small business owner, you have to do things and think differently. The minute you outsource that, you're using a consultant company that is also giving similar advice to everyone around you. You're no longer. Nothing is original here, right? So there are many reasons why it's worth it to stick it out as long as you can. And there will never be this defining moment where, like, yes. Time to hire, right? Time to hire someone else. You've just got to believe in yourself. And again, like you say, sometimes it has to get excruciating, and then you.
[00:17:36] Speaker A: Make a change, and sometimes those positions will present. I can tell you that any number of positions that we didn't have along the way, I had them in mind. I'll give you one example. Director of it. It was a small company. Yes, we had an ERP system, but usually that was run by committee. The accounting folks did their thing, and each group had subject matter expertise, and they were the keeper of their domain in it. And I always thought, well, is it even a 40 hours job? And then a person that I knew, there was a woman that had helped us do our latest ERP deployment, her daughter became available and never looked, hadn't had the epiphany, oh, we're there. This. It is excruciating. She showed up and it was the right fit, and we made the hire. And there's been a number of positions along the way where they were on the radar. I saw the need, and fortunately for me, they did present. I didn't have to go to the market. And they worked out great. They worked out great. That was one our first VP of Ops, our VP of marketing, who's sitting right over there, didn't have a VP of marketing until John walked through the door. And those have been some of the best hires that we've made. And it just made it a little bit easier. And it was like almost if, hey, look, I've always thought about that. There they are. Why wouldn't I get into it now and execute? And in every situation we were there, and it was almost like I got pulled into it, which is exactly what I needed to execute and get there.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: Now, what would you say someone said to you, Mick, I'm thinking about starting a small business.
Why should I do it? And why would you say, not a good idea? And that's a very broad question, and I'm sure you're going to have an individualized approach based on the person, but broadly speaking, yeah.
[00:19:32] Speaker A: I mean, fair to say that they've identified something that's in demand, like you said, solved.
[00:19:37] Speaker B: Let's start there. Yes, they've got a good problem, and in theory, a great solution.
[00:19:43] Speaker A: Yeah. I think the reason to start it is because you have all the belief in the world that you're certain that this demand that you've identified is completely aligned with the product or service that you've developed, and you're a full believer that's the reason it started. And then other reasons, like you, I think both of us, I know you struggled to work for other organizations. I've always been here, but I struggled to work for my father. I mean, we were like two propeller heads budding together. So if that's who you are and you like that autonomy and you want that type of freedom and you want to go at it as much as you want to go at it, those are great reasons to start the business and you want control and you want to break through whatever you want to break through to and to be. Those are all great reasons to do it, by far. Is it a guarantee of success? It's not. It's not enough by itself. But if you do that, if those are the reasons that you start and you've got a solid plan. And I don't mean business plan. I'm not a big business plan person. You're not. Sorry. Mbas and people out there that are into that.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Let me just interject one thing. If I had followed my business plan and hit those projections, your five year and only had to do this to get a bank to banks to present, you have to give them a business plan, I would have so undersold myself.
[00:21:09] Speaker A: Yeah, me too.
[00:21:10] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's one reason not to get too caught up with the business plan.
[00:21:15] Speaker A: Yeah, me too. And I just mean a plan. Right. A plan of execution. And I'm not saying that you're charting out your five year this or that. I mean, certainly you'd want to understand your cash flow and you'd want to have certain. I'm not saying just go out there and wing it. That's not any easier reasons not to start the business.
I just think you'd have to be really honest with yourself in, it's not glamorous, the number of people that would say to me along the way, well, you own your own business. Whether it was, who is picking up the check, that was always a great one, right? Well, you'll just write it off or things like that.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: Can you explain what that means?
[00:21:50] Speaker A: You just write, it was always, and this was when I was younger, right. And you had your first credit card and it was generally maxed or pretty damn close and the check would come. And your buddies that were working at wherever they were, whether they were working at Merrill, I had budies at Merrill and a lot of financial buddies and they were smiling and dialing. They were on the phone and their professional development programs 20 hours a day, burning up the lines. By the time I saw them was 09:00 they'd been dialing from 07:00 a.m. To nine. Their fingers were bloody and their ears were cauliflower from the phone. And the check would come and look around and everybody's arms got really short. And they'd look over at the guy whose name and business name were on the same card, and it was like, you get it, Arnold, you'll just write it off. Well, the idea is that you're somehow going to deduct that or you're going to put that out as a business expense, but it just means that you can't even do it anymore. You could at least do a little bit of it back in the early 90s, mid 90s. But it's just the idea that that would be a business expense and it's free.
It's free, which is far from the case. But yeah, just the idea. It's not glamorous, it's really long hours. And there will be significant sacrifices to be made. I think that's the main point, is that there are going to be massive sacrifices to be made and just be aware of them. If you're a father of young kids, then that could be the sacrifice in your situation. You can speak to a better die and I'll table it, but that there are going to be significant sacrifices, and you should be very aware of where you are at that particular moment in your life and be honest with yourself. If you could actually make those sacrifices and you're going to be okay with that. And if you're trying to make the move later, we talk to a lot of people that are into their career and they're trying to go the side hustle route because they need income. I mean, I would just be really honest.
I would be more intentional about acknowledging the sacrifices than I would a business plan. I think that's what I would be. My suggestion would be, really understand the sacrifices, because once you launch, you don't get a chance to pull back. Right. You're going to have to go through with it. And it means that if you all of a sudden midstream, aren't okay with those sacrifices, your business is likely going to fail as a result. Not as a result of the sacrifices, as a result of you not acknowledging them.
[00:24:17] Speaker B: Do you think it is absolutely critical and required that not only you acknowledge the sacrifices, but that your partner and children, if there are partners and children, are also on board with it? And what if they're not?
[00:24:37] Speaker A: That's a good one.
I don't know.
It's hard for me to speak to that when I only knew one thing, I was born into it, and my trajectory was generally heading in that direction. I was in and around the business, so I was always going to do it, and I certainly had the option to just do what we were doing, right. I could have gotten up and gone to work. By the time my father passed away, he was in there from seven to five, something like that. Still a ten hour day, but there was an end to the day, and I could have kept doing that. And it was a much smaller company then. It was, I don't know, 7th or eigth of the size that we are now, that would have been an option. Could have gotten everybody fed. But I never really stopped to think of it. I was just in one mode, so I'd never really got there. I certainly subjected my family to it. I mean, I was gone dark 30 to dark 30, but I don't know that I ever really stopped to think about it, which is probably why I'm talking about it.
Did you ever stop to think about it? I mean, you were single and solo, but still, it took a toll on the time that you spent with your family, which is very important.
Certainly relationships were challenging, if not even impossible in those moments.
[00:25:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I was young enough where I probably didn't think about it. Just being unaware, ignorant, naive, whatever you want to call it, which in hindsight probably was great, allowed me to start it more carefree than I would have had I known what was on the other side. I mean, I could talk about all the things that you hear all day. It's very stressful. I mean, the physical manifestations, what we've talked about before, it's definitely taken some health tolls. And for years I had a racing heart that was out of control. Those kind of things, you can't make that up.
So all those things are real, all the stress. But I think one thing that I find challenging is to be aware, right? So to really look at yourself and say, is this what I want? And is this truly what I want, and is this best for me? And I've had a few friends who are arguably, some, not arguably, they are some of the most successful people I know who were the best at evaluating themselves. And they said, no, I don't want to be an entrepreneur. I don't want to own a business. I am not into taking on all this risk, but I know I'm really freaking smart, and I know I'm one of the smartest people. I'm best at what I do. So they found a really good organization with a lot of growth, opportunity and a lot of freedom. And they just locked in on who they were, embraced that and have worked their way up. So now they have this foundation, security and an incredible life. And now they're presidents and vps and pretty much running their own business risk free. So you look at some of that, and they are successful than most entrepreneurs that I know. Sure.
Because they were so self aware, so young, and being real with yourself is hard. So I look at that, and that's one of my first pieces of advice. If you can't really know what you want and be honest, you might be going into it just because it sounds good. Or you want to believe that's what you want, right? You want to believe that. Sure.
And that's a real thing. The other part of it, which is interesting, and I've just thought about this recently, but I would ask you, do you ever feel like it has hardened you and made you a little less empathetic than you would otherwise be? Because sometimes I look at myself and I've always been type a, but I feel like it has done that to me a little bit. And I'm always working on. I'll have conversations with my team, and I'm so short sometimes. I mean, just the other day I was like, why are you being so short? And just because there's so much going on. And I think in my head, well, they get it. I have time for a three second answer, but then I look back, I'm like, did it really have to be 3 seconds?
I continually am just building this wall and personality and hardness, and not as empathetic as I might otherwise be, because I feel like I need to. And maybe I do. Maybe that's why things have been successful. But I don't know. I think about that a lot. Like, maybe that's something that I continue. As I build a business, I've developed this hardness and a lack thereof on the other side. I mean, what do you feel about that?
[00:29:17] Speaker A: In spots. I remember when I was younger and my father was still alive, there were certain things that become not just guidelines, but rules, and they seem very stringent to me. And I would think, how did we get here? Like, wow, that seems like a lot. Or overkill would be the word that you would use. How did we get here? And sometimes I was actually smart enough to ask, gosh, dad, that seems pretty overkill. And he usually had a pretty good reason. Well, because back in 1953, such and such did so and so and the result was. And the risk was, it certainly had a sound like that, and it made sense after I heard it. But I still thought, still seems like overkill to me. I was 24, 23 years old, and blah. Da.
But as I got into those situations and still not as often, having been in the business for a while, I'll say, well, never saw that one before. And I think that when you go through those, never saw that one before. And if it's a moment where you got burned, I think I'm answering a little bit different than what you asked, right? The stresses or having to stop and say, all right, chill out. Give a reasonable answer here. Some of that hardness that you're talking about or what I've seen or caught myself doing or trying to at least reel back, would be in those moments where you got burned or something along those lines that you didn't end up with a scar that you couldn't feel through in those moments. That's the piece, that hardness that you're talking about. That's the hardness that I'm aware of or try not to get pulled into. But you still have to be smart, right? I mean, if it's risky or you recognize that as a risk that maybe you didn't in the past, then you'd be foolish if you didn't react to it as if there was something to protect against or be aware of. So I would say that hardness comes from protecting against risk, which often the.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: Person you're talking to has no concept of that, which I'm not always mindful of. And I think I know that at the end of the day, I'm signing on the dot, signing my life away constantly. And I feel, you know, on these guarantee, still guarantee. As a small business, I'm still required to do so many guarantees or in a bond like, I'm signing my. My life and your life away often. And so in my head, I'm like, you don't get it. Why am I stressed? Like, this is why. Yeah, they don't get it. Because why would they?
They don't know that. Nor should they.
[00:31:44] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:31:44] Speaker B: And I can't expect that. So that's really hard to sometimes disseminate and say, hold up here. Your expectations are off. You can't expect someone just to know that, and you certainly can't take that pressure off on someone else. So that's a challenge. And I think that builds up and taking a step back and trying to evaluate that is really hard.
[00:32:08] Speaker A: Well, that's one of the challenges with being so back to why you may not start a small business, I think, when it's young or early, and it doesn't even matter how old your business is, but really more where you are in the evolution in your spot, you don't necessarily have a lot of people to share that with. You haven't built out. My best friend from high school is the director of sales for Anderson, and we had a great conversation the other day, but he was telling Anderson Windows. Yes, Ian Anderson.
And we were just having a conversation and he just made mention of he was in the director's room of something, but it was a room of very experienced people that all had similar experiences. And that would be an appropriate room to have that reaction. Right. Because everybody would be on the same wavelength and they would be feeling the same pressures. Knowing the risks, you don't have that a lot of times as a business owner, right. And you're just in the day to day and you're executing. And when you see that, it's not like you can duck into that room full of people that have similar knowledge and they'd all be like, oh, hell yeah. Did you see that risk bomb over there? You don't have that. So I think it comes out real time and it's tough to control, right. Because you're feeling the risk. And at times it could be so sensitive, it even kicks in fight or flight. Right. You'd have a fight or flight reaction to it and you wouldn't even be aware of trying to control of it because the mammal in you is kicking at that particular moment. And when you're in a smaller business, you don't have a lot of that insulation or you don't have that room to tuck into, to talk about.
[00:33:44] Speaker B: Yeah, actually, that's one of the ways I try to reel it back, probably because a lot of this is reactive and not proactive as it should be. But because my team is very small right now, I can bring them all together and I'm so transparent. I can be like when I'm signing these bonds, whatever, I am signing a life way. And that has a lot of pressure. And this is why I react this way, actually. That's my way of trying to be like, you reacted wrong. Open up. Share. And we can. Doesn't make it right and I can't pull it back, but that's certainly a way because people deserve to know. And I think the old mind and your father, I'm sure, would never have been in a room with people and said, and opened his book up and said, this is ever. But that's change. And that transparency with social media and everything else, people are just opening their lives up, and you have to be transparent if you're not. I'm not saying share everything. And sometimes it's better not to, to keep people feeling comfortable and safe and all of that. Sometimes you just got to fight some battles on your own, and that's the risk you assume. But I do think being transparent is helpful for everybody.
[00:34:56] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. How can you expect them to understand what you're going through?
[00:35:00] Speaker B: Or you can.
[00:35:00] Speaker A: Why that reaction looked the way it did. But, yeah, you're right. No, that older business generation, the boomers, if you will, there was that very keep it close to the vest or the wizard behind the curtain mentality at times where you wouldn't share any of that. I mean, I know in our executive meetings, for example, which we have on a weekly basis, it's my direct team and I, five and me, and the things that we talk about or I share are quite a bit different, I believe, than what you would have seen my father share, having been around. He had his right hand man, which was my brother in law, and I think they had little to no secrets, if you will. And I don't mean secret secrets, but I mean things that they were privileged to that the rest of the organization certainly wasn't. But it didn't go much deeper than two. There wasn't a three or four. Even my mother, in that capacity, had limited information. She wasn't necessarily in a lot of those conversations. That would be the heavy duty decision making for the future of the organization. So, yeah, it's definitely a lot different, and I think you're right. It's not that you'd put every single thing out there all the time, just because there are things that we should deal with as ownership. Right. And especially if they're short term or they're just momentary noise, you would just battle through those, or you would handle those individually, and then you would invite your team in for the things that were more team in nature, or if it is a systemic problem or systemic, great thing, whatever it would be. Right. I think that's one of the challenges, is picking and choosing what do I hold and deal with or battle on my own and or when do I invite the team in? I'm going to battle this for a minute by myself, but the second I feel like it's a heavy lift, then I'm going to bring my team in. We're going to spread it. Those are interesting conversations. Those are interesting thoughts or choices that you have to make, especially when you're doing it for the first time.
[00:36:52] Speaker B: Yeah. So timely for me because I have a meeting that I set for tomorrow on just this with my full team. And it's like, listen, we've reached a point in the business where we're growing and we don't have what I believe is a model in place that we're going to be able to sustainably scale. And we've got to change our chart, we've got to change our roles that we've all assumed for a while now. We've got to change our processes, basically everything. And while I have a very definite, clear vision and structure of how we're going to do this, I absolutely need their feedback and their buy in. And it's going to be a group discussion from the start. It's all consuming, as you know, I'm saying no to everything else, every invite, everything. This is going to be my life and for the next however long it takes to get this right. And I think the approach is to bring my team in and have that buy in, but also get their feedback.
This is what we're doing. I'm going to set that structure, but how we do it and the nuances of it, that's what I need the team. And it's scary. It's almost like a new evolution of the business, but it's what we have to have and leads me to my next point, which is what needs to happen. The next point is, a lot of people say part of running a business. The hardest part is that it's very easy to feel alone as a business owner, which I have never really felt that. And I don't think it's been lonely. Like, certainly in the beginning stages, I was alone, but not lonely. And I think maybe I just got very lucky with a super supportive family. Then I met you and we're going through the same things together. So it's a whole different feel.
That's a really real thing. And I think a lot of. If you were to ask a business owner many, what's the hardest part about running a small business? I think 50% maybe would say the feeling of being alone.
Do you experience that?
[00:39:15] Speaker A: Yes, and certainly early on. So I'm going to go back to one thing you said it was interesting about your team and the process that you're going through. There's an interesting formula. It's e equals r times c, it's efficiency equals right times commitment. And the core is the more committed you are, the less right you have to be so I would say in those meetings, what I would be looking for is, while you're talking about your strategy and you're going to do this and you're in the weeds on the tactics and all that piece, what I would really be looking for would be a really high level of commitment, because as long as your team is highly committed, then you can be a little off on. Right. And still succeed and still be successful. And that's because you can pivot at really high speeds and get to where you were going to go. As long as that commitment level is.
[00:40:00] Speaker B: There, as long as you're all moving in the same direction.
[00:40:02] Speaker A: That's right, yeah, absolutely. Well, that commitment would have you very closely aligned. Right. And if you do have to make a high speed pivot, everybody's right there for it, then you can move towards right. Even if you missed a little bit at the outset, it becomes less important, the higher the commitment level is. So that's something I've always been really aware of, because we've gotten more wrong than we have right to start. I would say that we've at least gotten 51% of them right ultimately. And the big ones, even a higher level. Right. Because you're trying to miss the bombs we talk about all the time. I'm just trying to miss the bomb here. I'm out running this, out working this. I'm out thinking this. I'm just trying to miss the bomb in the short term to get to the other side, whatever that looks like. Feeling lonely? Yeah, I think at times, I just think it's the idea that if you're at the top, if you will, of whatever that means, if you're at the top of Google, that's a rather large pyramid.
It's just the idea that there just isn't anyone really left around to pat you on the head of times and say, good job or nice job. I think that would be the only thing that would have a lonely at the top feel to me, but not really. I mean, I've always been surrounded by great people that I let in and cared about. We were very aligned on the mission and we were friends. Know our first vp of sales, Paul Lapel, very aligned. Did it together, had a lot of fun, and had a lot of similar experiences personally and business. So I always had people that I could turn to, fortunately built out a great war room. So while it is easy or you could be in that position, there are things that you could do intentionally to miss. That one is build out a great war room business that would also then evolve into personal friends, too. Or you could lean on them for more than just tax advice, or you could ask them a question about, well, I know you went through a situation with your son, your daughter, whatever that would be, and then that allows you to feel less alone in certain moments.
[00:42:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, listen, I think the reason I probably feel the way I do is because I met you and maybe that allowed me to do what I've done.
I'm sure I'd be saying something completely different, but because we have each other and we're able to have these conversations every single day, that's probably a big reason I feel the way I do it. And also I think I've probably never been afraid to seek out people for help, or I've learned to do that more and I've learned to do that first before last, which has been a huge learning curve for me, but I've never been afraid to do it, which has helped. The only thing I would say, and this isn't at all being lonely at all, but that I really am missing is the ability to find great female leaders in the industry that I'm in. Not required. I mean, as business owners, we're all going through a lot of the same things regardless of the industry or the gender, right? Or the gender, sure. Yes. But it is different and you do face different things, and certainly females in male dominated industries face different challenges. And I've become so numb and used to a lot of them, but it would be cool to have some other females in the exact same position. It's really, actually really hard to find. Sure.
That could relate and that we could talk about those things. So that's the only really thing that's missing. Not lonely, two different things or adjacent industries. I think I talked manufacturing, auto, whatever.
[00:43:40] Speaker A: Those male dominated industries would be. Yeah, I agree. Well, look, I mean, one of the goals here is for us to this demonstration process or talking about what we do. If it were to draw more females to either one, construction or manufacturing, both industries would be better off by having more different types of people in them, for sure.
[00:44:01] Speaker B: Yes. So what do you think? I think the trajectory of small business and what small business looks like with ever evolving technology and different things, I think it's going to look way different in maybe even ten years, 20 years, 30 years, 40 years. I think it's going to have a much different feel. I think you're still going to have a lot of big companies, but I think there's going to be a lot of outsourcing, a lot of consulting a lot of people that are able to run a business by themselves with this. What do you see as the evolution of small business in general?
[00:44:42] Speaker A: We're already seeing this huge disruption now, and I think so many of the walls have been broken down for access. If you go back, I don't know, 2030 years, only the largest companies had access to certain types of resources, IBM, Xerox. I'm throwing some big names from some of which are around and relevant. Kodak, not so much, although there's been a lot of Kodak conversations recently. And this ties into what we're talking about. The number of references I've heard to Kodak recently as it relates to Chat GPT and the idea that Google had AI. They were the leader in AI four years ago, just like Kodak had digital photography first and shelved. Know who wants that anyway? And the comment that I heard today from a former Kodak executive was it was like all the flashbulbs stopped at once and there was a huge disruption today. There's a company called Chegg that our daughter, we've bought books from Chegg for study guides. Chegg stock opened up 40% off today because someone just realized that students are using Chat GPT as a source or an aid or a study guide. And Chegg was the direct or assailed because of that directly. So I think the fact that everybody now has access to these types of resources, whether it's AI or whether it's Khan Academy or Google or YouTube, right, the ability to learn real time whenever you want, right? I mean, real time all the time. I think it's going to continue to break the walls down. And then if you look at costs, that's the other piece, too. So the accessibility to these technologies and things like that had a couple of different barriers, right? One was cost or just where is it? How do I get my hands on it? The sheer exact idea of access. And I think those walls are just going to continue to be torn down. And then if you throw in the productivity component and really the personal productivity component, I mean, I don't recall anybody railing about office, right, Microsoft office, the way they're railing about Chat GPT. But if we stopped and looked back, I would imagine, I would suggest that Microsoft office and the HP desktop printer had as much effect on business as Chat GPT will in the foreseeable future as it would have did to taking out back office.
The lengths you had to go through to print something. I mean, it was a big deal. Now you have, what do you want? You want to print a blueprint, you want it this big, you want it that big, you want it on a label. So I don't know, I'd be curious to roll that back and be a fly on the wall. As Microsoft Office started to invade big companies and Excel and what happened there and rooms with the size of our offices, with computers, what did that look like in comparison to how we're experiencing chat? GPT I think the difference is we're much more aware and listening to the CEO of Google the other day. His big point was the difference between this AI and what went on then is our awareness of it. So I think that might be the only difference. But I would say small business, whatever size it is, productivities should continue to go up.
If that two or three or 4 hours you used to spend writing a thing, whatever it was, a blog of this or that, is now being generated 90%, 95% by a tool like chat. GPT what do you do with that 2 hours? What do you do with that 3 hours? Where do you take that and how do you deploy it and what do you deploy it towards? I think that's going to be the difference maker in breaking out some of the small businesses and have them being effective despite not having some of the resources yet of the big businesses. We'll see. This could do heavy duty damage to Google, for example. We'll see how this plays out. But I think the ability to disrupt is better and bigger than it's ever been.
[00:48:48] Speaker B: I just think as I'm sitting in this chair and you're talking to me, I'm talking about my show. I had to bootstrap and I had all this financial risk and all this maybe 1020 years that goes away because you're talking about those barriers, accessibility, they're going down as technology is going up, which makes it easier for people to start businesses, makes it less risky. I believe in different ways, there's no getting around the money component. You could easily start a business at your fingertips with the resources that are out there. I just think what I would say now versus what I would say in ten years there'll be different problems over here.
[00:49:28] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:49:28] Speaker B: But it'll look different and it'll be exciting. I love the fact that more people are going to be able to start something, whether it's full time on the side or just with less barriers to entry.
[00:49:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there will be will AI and products that are involved AI take out certain businesses. They will, sure they will. And I think going forward there will be businesses that use AI and there will be not those businesses anymore. Right. You're going to have to use the tools and leverage the tools. But the other thing that is still encouraging to me is that at least now, Chat GPT, for example, it derives its intelligence, if you will, by backward looking, by scraping data that has already been posted to the Internet, things that we already know. So as long as you're on the creative side of the quotient, then I like your chances. Right? You're still going to have to outcreate, you're still going to have to do things that are new, and if you are, there's nothing for the chat GPTs of the world to scrape because you're doing it for the first time. That'll be the differentiator, I believe.
[00:50:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think one thing that scares me a little bit about it is, as I'm saying this out loud, is taking the collaboration piece out a little bit because people can do things on their own. But I still think at the end of the day, that collaboration piece, no matter how business evolves, is going to be important. And it might look different, but that collaborative relationships, I just don't see that ever going away. Maybe I'm wrong, but what are your thoughts on that? I mean, I just don't see how that could ever not be such an instrumental part of and critical part of who we are as humans from an evolution standpoint and just something we've always needed.
[00:51:11] Speaker A: Yeah, I hope not. I mean, we're still mammals, right? You're not going to undo this much of.
[00:51:14] Speaker B: I hold on to that belief.
[00:51:16] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the relatability piece, you said. Yeah, I think I would still like to think that it'll still be the relatability component of the information that stays attractive. And if it does, then there will still be that feel component and that'll still be what's attractive more than just data, exclusively for the sake of data, that you'll still have to position it in a relatable fashion for it to be more attractive than other choices that you'd have.
[00:51:47] Speaker B: That's what I hope for anyone that's looking to start a. Maybe this is a good topic to end on, somebody that's looking to start something, a small business, or maybe just a business, because I will tell you, my intent wasn't let me start a small business. It's like, let me start a business and see where this evolves.
[00:52:07] Speaker A: Right.
[00:52:07] Speaker B: So I love start a big business.
[00:52:09] Speaker A: Start a big business. I highly recommend.
[00:52:10] Speaker B: Would you? I don't know, but let's say start a business and let it evolve where it goes organically. Start a business.
What would be your advice to them right now, in this moment, in this environment, under these circumstances? One piece of advice, go start.
[00:52:31] Speaker A: Don't wait. Start. If you think you've identified, we talk about some of the checklists, right? That sacrifice piece, very intentional about that, because I think that's some things that are overlooked. And if you miss that and you get in the moment and you realize that the sacrifices are more that you can stand or the business can stand by virtue of you being one person in the business, right. You're together because if you can't hack it, the business has to fail because you're tied undeniably to each other. So I would say start. And it's easy for me to say though, right? I understand. We talk to a lot of people that they have kids or they've got these aspirations and they think they've got to figure it out. We're addicted to Shark tank, for example.
And the people that come on there. Some have already quit their job, some are still working multiple jobs as they're trying to get this over the hump. And they're there trying to find an investor to help lighten the load or support the load so that they could make that full leap. But my suggestion would be start.
[00:53:36] Speaker B: Mine would be first, which I've already said is get really introspective. You've got to first be so aware and honest with yourself, who you are and what you want. If you've gotten past that and said, yes, I want to start a business, I would have always said you jump in full on. Because I personally could have never had a side gig and started my business. I still to this day, there's no way I could have gotten it up and running as fast as I did had I not done that. I mean, it was required working endless amount. But I just heard a statistic the other day which says I'm very wrong, and that most, the majority of small business owners that are successful, it was a majority. I would say it was like two thirds, something like that, which is a majority, but had a side hustle or side gig or continued working while they were starting their business. And the ratio of those businesses are more successful. Again, I don't know. It was from a good source, but who knows what's the truth and where are they getting this data from? So I would always say jump in full because that's the only way I know, but I'm not sure that's the best advice. And the other thing would be, it's going to be messy and you're going to get everything wrong and keep going. And I laugh because one thing that really helped me along the ways was to make the business look bigger than it did. So I remember when I meet people, they're like, oh, I thought you were huge. I mean, I would talk about. I made up email addresses of, like, here's Tim at are. These were the little things. And you might be.
That's your leading. No, I was doing what I needed to do to make the business seem legit and bigger. And so you can implement these things and put them in place while you're getting started so you feel credible, so you feel confident, and these are just always, it's going to be messy.
I look back and laugh at some of it, but it was so crucial to those early starts so I could get into all the hysterical things I did, looking back.
[00:55:47] Speaker A: Well, good, we will.
[00:55:48] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:55:49] Speaker A: I think there's one great takeaway is that there's no one right way. That's a good part.
[00:55:53] Speaker B: Yes, exactly. Good.
[00:55:55] Speaker A: Well, happy.
[00:55:56] Speaker B: I mean, I've got the right way, I feel like.
[00:55:58] Speaker A: But you're here. You got enough right. You got the majority of it right, even if that's 50.1%. Well, happy small business week.
[00:56:06] Speaker B: Yes, happy small business week.
[00:56:08] Speaker A: All right.
