Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Women will only apply for a position when they have 100% of the qualifications versus men, who will apply with 60% of the qualification. By the time that we get to the C suite, women represent only 28% of those positions, of which women of color only represent six. Wow. Too often, we are wired to strive for perfection.
[00:00:23] Speaker B: Erin Moran, who's the executive Director of the Dr. Nancy Grazmick Leadership Institute.
[00:00:29] Speaker A: A system is only as good as the. The leaders who are guiding the process and the people who are willing to embrace that change.
[00:00:38] Speaker C: Your first job back after your one year. Like, what was it like? I need to do that.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Dr. Grazmick. I would see her on TV as I was growing up. I was just so impressed. She was the first female state superintendent. She had that position for 20 years. If I have a chance to work with her and learn from her, yeah, I'm all in. And then.
[00:01:03] Speaker B: Welcome Tod for the superstars tonight.
[00:01:08] Speaker C: Welcome to the Love and Business podcast. I am Brit Arnold, president of Tigler Construction and Supply.
[00:01:13] Speaker B: And I'm Mick Arnold, president of Arnold Packaging and Arnold Automation. And today we have a very, very special guest. You know, we've talked a bunch in our podcast about branching out and bringing in a lot of influential people from certainly the Baltimore area and, and continue to grow that we have Aaron Moran, who's the executive Director of the Dr. Nancy Grasmick Leadership Institute. I think all my brain power has now been sucked up, but fortunately, Aaron brought me some circus peanuts. Apparently it got out of my love of trashy candy, so thank you.
[00:01:46] Speaker C: Aaron loves trashy candy.
[00:01:49] Speaker B: And Caitlin, who picked up on it. And yes, I, I'm so excited. Hopefully you don't mind if I eat on camera because I'm, I'm going to. And that's that because it's our podcast. Anywho, so welcome. We're so happy to have you here. And, and you know what? What a great topic, leadership. And, and we're excited to learn more about you, of course, and the, the Nancy Grasmick Leadership Institute. So thank you so much for your.
[00:02:11] Speaker A: Time and thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.
[00:02:15] Speaker C: And we were talking off camera right before we started rolling in that the Nancy Grasmic Leadership Institute is so much different than just a leadership program. And that's what I want to get into. Well, one, your story, which is super interesting, you as a human, as a person, that's like our priority. And getting into that first. And then secondly, the institute and what you guys do, because you have really in my. In my opinion, transformed what leadership looks like. But really the education and teaching. Teaching of leadership. Because quite frankly, I mean, when I hear leadership, sometimes I'm like, oh, that sounds boring. Like it's going to be just the same stuff we've heard over and over again. We know that's not true with what you guys do. So that's what we're going to get into today. Where shall we start?
[00:03:03] Speaker B: I think we start at the very beginning. And if I have to sing the Sound of Music, you're going to be upset. But let's start at the beginning. I mean, give us your background. So I had to do a little bit of research. I think I knew that you were originally from this area. I know I certainly knew you. We met more recently, so I knew how well traveled you were later in life.
But I think you come from the humble beginnings right here of Baltimore. Right.
[00:03:25] Speaker A: Grew up in Parkville.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: So tell us about it. Parkville, like your parents.
[00:03:28] Speaker C: I know. My parents went to Parkville High School.
[00:03:31] Speaker A: So I lived right across the street from Parkville Middle.
[00:03:33] Speaker C: Awesome. Okay, local girl.
[00:03:35] Speaker A: Local girl.
[00:03:36] Speaker C: But you did not stay local.
[00:03:38] Speaker A: I did not. Once I graduated from high school, I went to Philadelphia. And then from there, 12 cities domestically and five countries.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: So saint. St. Joe's is where I went. And so I. So I was doing the background work. Your major was interesting in relation to what I know you to do now. Right. So where you start and where you end up don't necessarily have. But I think I saw some French in there.
[00:04:03] Speaker A: And 17th century French literature, more importantly.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: Yes. Because.
[00:04:07] Speaker A: Super useful.
[00:04:08] Speaker C: Yes, yes.
[00:04:10] Speaker A: And food marketing.
[00:04:11] Speaker B: Okay, interesting.
[00:04:13] Speaker C: Now, food marketing was something you continued in post college.
[00:04:19] Speaker A: Yes. So my very first position after graduating from college was in Estonia and I helped to launch what was then the very first Pan Baltic supermarket chain.
[00:04:31] Speaker C: Oh, wow. Now what got you interested in food marketing? I mean, that's so niche.
[00:04:36] Speaker A: Yeah. So I am the very proud recipient of an aspect Asparagus Club scholarship.
Yes.
[00:04:43] Speaker C: Did not know that exist.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: We get smarter. We know.
[00:04:46] Speaker B: This is why we do guests, folks, because we're a little sheltered.
[00:04:50] Speaker A: So essentially I applied for every single scholarship that I could possibly get and I won. The Asparagus Club and Frozen Food Association. But the requirement was I had to major in food marketing. So guess what I majored in?
[00:05:03] Speaker B: Beautiful food marketing. I love it. That's awesome.
[00:05:05] Speaker C: That is so interesting.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: Okay. Wow.
[00:05:07] Speaker C: I didn't know that existed.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: Neither did I until I did the research.
[00:05:11] Speaker B: Whatever take. Whatever takes. Exactly. Whatever it takes. That's one of Our favorite sayings here.
[00:05:16] Speaker C: I think that that perfectly reflects who you are as a person. Like, very resourceful.
Like you figure it out, as we call it, figure it out factor. High figured out factor.
[00:05:26] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:05:27] Speaker C: Okay, so then you were in Estonia. What was next in your path in the food market in the way of food marketing?
[00:05:36] Speaker A: I don't know that I stayed much in the food marketing space. I came back stateside and I got my mba because what I realized when I was in Estonia was that I did not have the strength or the financial acumen to be able to be a leader in business. So got my MBA and then went and worked for. At that time it was Anderson Consulting. It is no longer Anderson Consulting, it is Accenture. And I was in their organization and human performance practice for several years.
[00:06:12] Speaker C: And what did that look? What does that look like? Human performance.
[00:06:17] Speaker A: It was a lot of, back then, it was a lot of large scale systems implementations, ERPs, and I was on the side of trying to teach people how to use the systems and to lead the change management process and then kind of evolved into leadership development programs and organizational strategy.
[00:06:38] Speaker C: Would you say that was the beginning of your transition into the leadership world?
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Definitely.
[00:06:44] Speaker C: Okay, absolutely.
[00:06:45] Speaker A: Because what I realized was that a system is only as good as the leaders who are guiding the process and the people who are willing to embrace that change. And I was not really super interested in technology. I was so much more interested in the people component. And it was just, it just fascinated me, the human psychology behind all of it.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: Interesting, though. So what was that title called again? It was called Human Performance.
[00:07:10] Speaker A: Organization and Human Performance.
[00:07:12] Speaker B: Organization and Human Performance. Only because the, the last thing I thought you were going to say was that you were going in to implement ERP systems, which a lot of times will reduce the amount of heads in an organization. So that's not, I. That's not what I thought you were going to tell me was, was the role. But that change management piece that goes with it is certainly a massive part of the role in getting everybody to embrace. Right. And adopt. Embrace and adopt are two biggies. So what were the things that stood out most to you about that experience? When you thought, oh, this is a career, was it evident to you quickly that that was something that you wanted to be part of your career trajectory or did it sneak up on you later?
[00:07:53] Speaker A: I think it snuck up on me a little later on in my journey. What I saw was a lot of poor leaders, not necessarily at Accenture, but at my clients where I was working. And I just knew that I Wanted to do something that was focused on great leaders because I saw the toxic effect that it had on the organizations and on people growing up. I remember my dad as an example. He would have conversations at the dinner table. He loved what he did. He didn't feel like he was being treated respectfully in the workplace. And so he always talked about the fact that, you know, he had so much potential to offer if only leaders and management would help him to tap into that potential, recognize it, and to help him learn and grow. But because he didn't have the degree, he was kind of boxed out. Right. So kind of seeing poor leaders when I was working with Accenture and then coupled with the childhood stories of my dad saying. Saying that he wished that he had worked in an environment that would see what he was able to bring forward, that kind of really was the catalyst for me to then make the move to Great place to Work, where I was for 10 years.
[00:09:07] Speaker C: Okay, great place to work.
Tell the audience what that is.
[00:09:12] Speaker A: So usually people ask the question, is it. Yes.
[00:09:16] Speaker B: Yes. I had to keep reading. I kept reading. When I came across that part of it, I'm like, that's fun. I don't remember us talking about Great Place to Work.
[00:09:23] Speaker A: So they are the partner with Fortune magazine to do the 100 best companies to Work for list.
[00:09:30] Speaker B: Oh, cool.
[00:09:30] Speaker A: So they produce and publish that list here in the US and in 62 countries across the globe. And they also do consulting. So they support organizations that are interested in creating more vibrant workplace cultures with stronger performance.
And so I started out as a consultant with a portfolio of clients, and then I went to the international division for a number of years. And then when I had my second child, I came. I was stateside, and by the time I left, I was running the U.S. business division.
[00:10:07] Speaker C: This is really interesting because I bet you got an inside look into so many different businesses. That was probably so interesting to see. I mean, specifically what the leadership looked like and how that affected the rest of the organization.
[00:10:22] Speaker A: Absolutely. And what was so fascinating about that experience very early on was that you pick up the Fortune magazine and you read about, like, the perks and the benefits and like the, you know, the bean bags and the lava lamps and.
[00:10:36] Speaker B: All that concierge service. Right. Silicon Valley completely revolutionized. Right.
[00:10:41] Speaker A: Insurance, you know, that kind of stuff.
[00:10:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
Do we have that?
[00:10:45] Speaker C: Don't say too much.
[00:10:46] Speaker B: Tommy, Tommy, Tommy. Strike that. Please. Edit that part out. His cat, his cats. We have to be careful.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: So it's not about that at all. The essence of those workplaces that Were recognized is about the levels of trust that people had in leadership and in one another. And so that was the differentiating factor, because how do companies get on that list? Well, it's a survey that they conduct, and it's 52 questions. And the essence is about do you believe that your leaders are credible? Do you feel that you're respected? Do you believe that there is a level playing field or a sense of fairness? Are you proud of what you do and do you enjoy the people that you work with? That's the essence of those great organizations that we had the opportunity to study.
[00:11:35] Speaker C: That's. That's super interesting. Did you find, in addition to that, any common threads or commonalities between the great organizations or what you felt were the great organizations? I mean, was there anything you were like. Yeah, I see this in all of them.
Common threats.
[00:11:56] Speaker A: I would say for the leaders of the great workplaces that they were curiously intelligent. So they were always asking questions and seeking to learn more. They were compassionate, they had empathy, and they were focused on the whole person, not just the employee, in terms of their communication style and the relationships that they would build with their colleagues.
[00:12:23] Speaker C: I want to stick on this empathy piece because we've talked about this quite a bit in our last 50 episodes or however. Are we on 50?
[00:12:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:31] Speaker C: Yep. Congratulations.
[00:12:33] Speaker B: Celebratory day. Even more exciting that you're here to celebrate with us. That's awesome.
[00:12:36] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:12:37] Speaker B: And we have celebratory circus peanuts. I think that's most important of all of it for being honest.
Come back anytime.
[00:12:43] Speaker C: By the way, we've been talking about the evolution of it. Not as much in the female leader, just as far as empathy is. Is more socially acceptable, I would say, in females in general. Female leader. But the evolution of empathy and vulnerability in the male leader and how that has changed so much from hell. We talked about your dad and who ran the business like, and what his style was. Would you say lack of empathy?
[00:13:12] Speaker B: Definitely more of a hard charger. Yeah, I would say more mission focused. Right. It was more about the mission. And.
[00:13:19] Speaker C: And as was that generation.
[00:13:21] Speaker B: As was that generation. As a guy who fought in World War II. I mean, he literally came out of the battlefield and running missions. So, yeah, more of that. And. And certainly anything that vulnerability, you know, he would not be the shoulder you would be crying on, that is for sure. So, yeah, we've. We've spent a lot of time just talking about some. Maybe some of the generational differences and how that is not only more acceptable now, even. Even required to be A great leader. Especially considering the amount of diversity in the workplace and the way that's not just celebrated, it's. It's mandatory. Right. I mean, the data is undeniable as it relates to performance and how it correlates to the amount of diversity that you have in your organization. And I don't, and I don't just mean gender and race, that's part of it. But I also mean all of those different perspectives too. We might look for physically the same, but where you came from and what your life experiences are, I'm happy that's more welcomed. But it sounds like that that's something that you all were able to tap into or identify maybe long before it was main stage, like it is now.
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Well, and you think about the notion of trust and the people that you trust the most.
[00:14:31] Speaker C: That's what I was right, what I was going to say.
[00:14:33] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:14:33] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: And they have likely demonstrated an element of vulnerability because if you look at someone when and they haven't demonstrated they have any chinks in their armor, that's not someone that you necessarily want to follow or that you want to extend trust. And when you extend trust, that requires vulnerability in and of itself. So, yeah, I think you're spot on with that.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: Interesting. Yeah.
[00:14:56] Speaker C: And I've even. I mean, I'm still. I guess we all are. But I really have to work on that myself because I was so good, especially when I was starting my business, just putting, putting up a guard and being strong and I think maybe even overcompensating as a female, I don't think I had to do that. But at some point, being like a young female, maybe I felt like I did. So now I think I'm at the point where I've broken those walls down. And I'm much better at not intentionally being vulnerable or empathetic, but just organic like being myself and leaning into that. But it's hard. It's definitely hard. But I think my teammates, the ones that have been with me for a long time, like they've seen me grow in that way, which is so important. Every day I constantly think about, I'm like, you don't have to be strong all the time. You don't have to have a guard up all the time, like let your team in. The more you let them in, the more empowering it is for them and the more trust that you develop, which is so important.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: Right. That authenticity, I think is so, so powerful.
[00:15:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:56] Speaker A: And I did the same thing when I started out with my career. I over flexed on the trying to be strong in part because I thought I needed to in order to be respected as a female leader.
[00:16:09] Speaker C: That's exactly right.
[00:16:10] Speaker A: And in part because I was modeling the men that I worked with in a male dominated industry. So it's taken me 30 years to try to evolve into the authentic leader that hopefully I am now.
[00:16:21] Speaker B: Yeah. So stay on your career path because I don't, I want to lose that. I mean, this is what, this is what makes you, you. So from there, what was your next step, career wise?
[00:16:30] Speaker A: So then I worked for Union Square Hospitality Group as their chief culture officer. And Union Square Hospitality Group is probably best known for being the parent company of Shake Shack.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: Oh, yes.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: But they also have Michelin star, James Beard award winning restaurants all throughout New York City.
[00:16:51] Speaker C: Just last night you said, I'm going to get myself some Shake Shack.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: I am going to get some Shake Shack. Last night I opted for kava. Literally just last night. I did opt for kava last night because I.
[00:16:59] Speaker C: Because the Shake Shack and the kava.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: Because I needed to. Yeah. Talk about polar. Back to polarizing choices. Right. Like burger, salad. Yeah, I went salad last night. But I'm angry about it and I intend to make it right.
[00:17:10] Speaker C: I, I will let you all down that I've never tried Shake Shack, but I'm going to change that. I've heard wonderful, wow, wonderful things about the milkshakes.
[00:17:18] Speaker A: Yes, yes.
[00:17:19] Speaker B: The commercials. About that.
[00:17:20] Speaker C: I thought about that.
[00:17:21] Speaker B: Not that it's lunchtime and we might be starving. We've been up for, you know, 10 hours already. So I'm like, damn, I'm hungry. Circus peanuts, you're in trouble. But so that, so I love that, that, that culture piece. Right. So when did you start? What year was your first year there?
[00:17:35] Speaker A: 2013.
[00:17:37] Speaker B: Is that a little bit early in the land of identifying this culture representative? That's 11 years ago, it seems. That sounds to me like it's on the lead edge or the cutting edge of an organization devoting resources to a person with that talent. It's a lot more, much more of it now. But that seems to be lead edge to me in 2013. True.
[00:17:59] Speaker A: I believe so. The role in other organizations would have been a chro or a chief people officer.
However, the founder, Danny Meyer, he wrote a book called Setting the Table. It's kind of a handbook. Originally, it was perceived to be a handbook for the hospitality industry, but it's really a handbook for leadership overall. And he was so focused on the people experience and cultivating a vibrant culture where people felt great about how they were treated. And in return, they would treat our guests better and that would make sure that our guests would want to come back.
And so that's why he made it an intentional decision to say the role is. Obviously it's not one person's responsibility to contribute to the culture, it's a collective experience, but one person responsible for how it feels to be an employee and to constantly be thinking about ways to uplift the employee experience.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: And did you have. So as a relate. You know, there's two aspects of loving your job, certainly the quantitative and the qualitative portions.
What did you do? Or what were the goals? Or how did you wrap goals and possibly metrics too, or how did you know? How did you measure, if you can quality of their life versus quantity, People feeling great about showing up and certainly you've got to pay your bills and that whole piece. So how did you. What was the goal behind striking the appropriate balance between the two?
[00:19:35] Speaker A: You know, it was fascinating was there were three of us on the executive team. A Chief Restaurant officer, which is a coo, and a cfo, and then myself.
And the three of us made the decision collectively that we wanted to hold ourselves accountable to the KPIs together, rather than having us try to negotiate back and forth and prioritize one over the other because they're all so intertwined. So EBITDA and our margins were part of what I was responsible for.
Our guest feedback, which was something that was really important as well, that our Chief Restaurant officer was responsible for. And then our own trust index, the survey that we implemented, which we were able to break down into groups of five so we could see how pretty much each, not only restaurant how people were feeling, but each mini department within that. And the three of us were held accountable to all three of those together because it's such a balance. Right. So I could make a case to invest in the people experience and drain our profits. Right. Or, you know, we could make a decision to invest in the culinary experience. And maybe it's not the right choice for our people, but our guests are really happy. So it's just, it's such a balance.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: Great food, bad service, right.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: So we called ourselves kind of three legs of a stool because it only works when there is collaboration and a recognition of the fact that there are always trade offs in whatever leadership decision that you're making.
[00:21:07] Speaker B: But such an interesting point, and I know I'm yakking too much over here, but, you know, I will hear my directs, you know, our VPs talk about at times their KPIs being in conflict with each other. You know. And how do you. How do you set up an environment where there is that give and take and you don't end up with these exclusively siloed pieces of your business where here manufacturing, you know, in conflict with sales or purchasing. Right. Purchasing supposed to have as little inventory as possible. But sales is supposed to sell as much as they can and fill rates need to be high. Completely in conflict with each other. So interesting and great recognition. You know again a while back. I mean 11 years ago. I don't. That may not be as cutting edge as the title that you had, but it's right up there. That's for sure. Versus or even take it one step further pitting them against each other. Which happens in organizations. We have. We have customers where I travel to and actually watch organizations internally somewhat pitted against each other as if the idea of them competing would be good for the organizations. Whatever profitability picket even the opposite of what you're saying. Pitting one against the other to create a competitive environment that would have them outdo each other. I'm not sure who the beneficiary is of that. Probably nobody at the end but. But I watch it go on. Still in 2024.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: Right.
[00:22:23] Speaker C: Erin, I have a couple of questions I'm really interested in. I'll start with the first one. What do you think major restaurants different than the other ones because I have a feeling hospitality or else. I mean I think this would be applicable to probably every business translates like the things you did well anyone listening can take away and like implement or embrace in their own businesses. So what are those things that you would pinpoint like top three things that we did differently?
[00:22:56] Speaker A: I would say the number one thing was our hiring and the philosophy that Danny had about what he described as a 51 percenter and a 51 percenter. The way he would describe it is to say the technical responsibility of you being technically capable of performing your job is worth 49% of your grade.
How you make people feel is worth 51% of your grade.
Absent either one of these is it's still failing, but it's slightly more important how you make people feel with whatever you're doing. And we will be so much more patient to try to teach you the skill. And so we intentionally tried to hire people who were warm, naturally warm, intrinsically warm. People that wanted to take care of other people, people that were interested in a level of committed to a level of excellence.
These were people that we would describe as 51%. There was a whole list of questions that we would screen for. And that was the most important thing, was that they were thoughtful, caring people that other people wanted to be around and work with. And then if they didn't have the skill, we'd try to teach them.
Ultimately, it was our responsibility to ensure that they were technically capable as well. But we really focused our hiring practices on something that you can't teach, which is warmth and care and thoughtfulness. Right. And a strong work ethic. Those are intrinsic qualities. We can teach you how to, you know, chop the vegetables in order to have your mise en place, you know, for service. We can teach you how to serve, serve tables or to be a host, but we can't teach you to care for people and to have warmth in your eyes when you're connecting with people. And so we would, we would search for those types of people. And then we invested in our leaders to make sure they had the skills, the emotional intelligence to lead because it's an intense industry and long, long hours and in New York City, which is an intense city. Right. And so our leaders needed to have a wealth of emotional intelligence in order to effectively lead their teams.
[00:25:13] Speaker B: And what would you think?
[00:25:14] Speaker C: So I love that. By the way, that was such a great answer.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:25:18] Speaker B: And I think demanding. New York demanding. Right. High demanding. And. Yeah. And whether it's, you know, demanding of your individual client base, demanding versus the competition, that's there, literally, truly world class.
So in that 51, because the way you set it could come off a little woo, woo. Right. You know, we found people that feel, you know, you can write, you could take that part.
How. What was the success rate? I mean, certainly there, there are individuals that are incredibly warm, but they're going to fall short. You know, their aptitude looks there, but they fall short. From an execution perspective, what did that look like in the moment? Right. We're mixed. The warmest guy in the world, but he just can't chop carrots. Right. How would you go through that piece? Or what would, what would that look like in the assessment side of it, where you got a wonderful human and Mick, and he's committed and he shows up and he's warm and he truly cares. But that piece where you finally have to make the decision that Mick isn't going to be able to fulfill the 49%.
[00:26:14] Speaker A: Yep. That was a growth opportunity for us for sure, because we oftentimes held on to people too long because we cared so much about them. But what we eventually did was we implemented A matrix of ability and attitude. And top right was can and will. So these are your all Stars that you want to promote and recognize. Bottom left is can't and won't. These are the people that you need to get out. And then you've got the can't, but will. These are the people that have the attitude but not the skill. Those were the people that we invested six to nine months in. And we told our leaders, you've got a longer Runway. In order to invest in those folks six to nine months. But then they're in that other quadrant. They can't and won't. And it's time to. We said promote them to guests, which meant.
[00:27:03] Speaker B: Right, right. Yeah, yeah. We use this. Freeing up their schedule. Yeah, we have those two. Promoting them to somebody else's custom employee list. Right? Yeah, yeah, we have those, too.
[00:27:12] Speaker A: And then the bottom right quadrant is won't, but can. And those were the folks that had demonstrated in the past that they had the skill but just weren't bringing their best selves and were kind of skunking up the place.
[00:27:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: And those were the people that we were less patient with. So we would say couple of months, maybe three. But then they're also getting promoted to guests because, again, it's not our responsibility to turn that light back on for them. That's something that they have to find in themselves.
[00:27:41] Speaker B: So how would that type of performer get in the door in the first place? Right. If the 51% is that warmth component that something changed. You know, I mean, obviously, people go through life changes. There's personal events where all of a sudden mixed. It's just grumpy lately. Or anymore. Is that usually. Or as they came through looking one way but evolved to be different looking through the process?
[00:28:02] Speaker A: Well, in part. Sometimes we don't. Didn't. Sometimes we didn't get our hiring practices always down pat. And interestingly, because of the book, people knew what our.
[00:28:13] Speaker B: Oh, they could short circuit. Right. You gave me answers to the test.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: Come in. All be right. Yeah. It was an audition. Literally an audition.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: And it's New York, so you've got a whole lot of actors and actresses. That's funny. So that was the case.
[00:28:28] Speaker B: But yeah, that's one of our sales sayings. You don't know. There's a fine line between an actor and a salesperson, and you don't know what you have until it's too late. So you had some of those coming through.
[00:28:36] Speaker C: Now, how often were you. So you had this metric, and obviously it takes an evaluation process to be able to identify who falls. Where did you guys have a structured cadence? Where every quarterly you were doing these evaluations or how did you do that?
[00:28:53] Speaker A: So we would do quarterly kind of check ins with all of our team members. And remember, the overwhelming majority of our colleagues were hourly employees.
[00:29:02] Speaker C: And you had a lot, I mean, between all restaurants, a lot.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: Right. So at one point, at our peak, I think we had approximately 5,000 colleagues. So it was a lot. And they were kind of, we call them check ins. So not your kind of sit down for an hour and a half and have, you know, the 15 point checklist of an annual review type of situation.
But we also, in all of our break rooms, we had a mirror with that same quadrant on inviting people to take a look to say, where are you today?
[00:29:32] Speaker B: Ooh.
[00:29:32] Speaker A: So it was. And of course everyone's kind of checking themselves out before they, you know, get onto the floor or go into the kitchen in the break room. And so it's just another helpful reminder because it wasn't just the manager's responsibility to assess. It's on all of us to understand where we are.
[00:29:48] Speaker B: Wow. So there's a takeaway, folks. I mean, audience, if you're not reaching for your mirror and your tape right now, I mean, I am. Tommy, Duly noted. There'll be a lot of mirrors around here on Monday when you come in. I love it, absolutely love it. I mean that is like my favorite part about doing this in this podcast is truly actionable nuggets like that that you take away that can, you know, just start to shape your culture immediately because it can take a long time. I mean, like our company, for example, we've experienced quite a bit of turnover in the way of retirements and people finding different opportunities and next thing you know, you wake up and a lot of those shape holders that you had around that were just silently holding the organization together as a, you know, we'll turn 92 year olds years old next year. If you, if you experience that type of turnover, you can, you can walk in one day to it to an organization you don't necessarily recognize. And that's because you have so many new faces and you've lost some of your shape holders that you're, you're outweighed in that moment. And that weight can actually shift your culture if you're not paying attention. But something like that is an absolute immediate piece is fascinating. And I've never, and I as a guy that we have 800 purchasing customers and I'm in a lot of them I've never walked past a mirror that said, who are you? I think that's very cool. Very, very cool.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:31:05] Speaker C: While you were there, were there any large initiatives or changes that you implemented or your team did?
[00:31:12] Speaker A: Yes, we eliminated tipping.
[00:31:16] Speaker C: Really?
[00:31:17] Speaker A: Speaking of leading edge, yes, we eliminated tipping because we wanted to make sure that we did it for a whole host of reasons, but ultimately we wanted to make sure that we were taking care of our team members because we had a lot of international folks who sometimes wouldn't necessarily be as thoughtful with the customs here in the US and so we wanted to make sure that we were taking care of our team members. Or if somebody was grumpy, they didn't like the way that their salmon was cooked, they would take it out on the server. And also because our kitchen colleagues didn't get that same level of investment in them and yet you can't have the kind of the dining room without the kitchen. So we wanted to create more equity between kitchen and the dining room. And we also wanted to be more in control of the compensation of our team members because in the tipping world, your guest is deciding who gets a raise and who doesn't. And so we said, you know what, we would like to take care of it. So we did what was called hospitality included, where we bumped up our prices and we were able to take more financial care of our kitchen colleagues and we were able to create more of a professional career path for our team members.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: Did you experience any turnover? Because, you know, there's, there's that aspect of professional, very professional salespeople, wait staff. Right. That, that be almost like, well, anything, anytime you take the incentive out, you've, you've created a socialist environment. Right. It would have that feel to it. Did you experience any significant turnover as a result?
[00:32:55] Speaker A: We did, definitely. And just to the socialist comment, the socialist comment, just for a second, just to clarify, is that we were able to continue to increase their compensation. So there were three levels for each type of role. So we were trying to motivate them to continue to expand.
To your question about turnover. Definitely. And we went restaurant by restaurant as we did this and not a full scale approach. And the very first restaurant was the Modern at the Museum of Modern Art. And because of who Danny is and his reputation and you know, time, 100 people like, he's, he's quite an influencer. And we had international press outside of the Modern the day that we launched.
[00:33:47] Speaker C: They knew.
[00:33:48] Speaker A: Oh, they knew because he had mentioned it to the press, I want to say like three months before and so the day that we launched, we had all of these, the press outside, and it was a huge day for us. And we went in to the conversations with our team members in a very kind of cheerleader y way, like, we're going to do this. We're the first in the industry.
[00:34:09] Speaker C: I was going to say, were you the first? Had this.
[00:34:11] Speaker A: This had not been done before. And we were saying, like, we're going to take care of our kitchen colleagues and everyone's going to make more money. And we were just, rah, rah, rah.
[00:34:18] Speaker C: Yeah, cheerio.
[00:34:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:20] Speaker A: And what we learned, because we continued to host focus groups of our team members as we implemented all of these changes, was that when we made the change so big and positive and we didn't recognize how difficult and challenging it was going to be, it felt really disingenuous for our team members. And so the next time that we rolled it out in another restaurant, we said, it's going to be hard. It's going to be challenging. We think we know this is the right thing for our business. We can't decide that for you. If this isn't the right thing for you, that's okay. We love you. We wish you would stay on board, but if not, raise your hand and we'll find you another job somewhere else. And that was a huge lesson learned for the second rollout.
[00:35:06] Speaker B: Interesting, huh? So that sharp dose of reality was actually much has had much more efficacy than the rah rah cheerleader stuff. We can do it all together, right? Got it. And not everybody wanted to do it together. Interesting.
[00:35:20] Speaker C: Now, we asked how internally that was responded to from the other side. Flip the table to your customers who are now they're not tipping, but they're seeing higher prices on the menu. How did they experience that?
[00:35:37] Speaker A: That was also a huge change management process as well. We hosted, I think five or six town halls with our frequent guests. We invited anyone that wanted to show up to try to explain to them why we were doing this.
And some were on board and some weren't.
And we just tried to explain the why behind what we were doing. And the same way that we transitioned to locally sourced and organic ingredients for our recipes, it also increased our prices. But it was the right thing for the ethos of our company. And we tried to explain that as well, that the prices are going up. But we're. We're taking better care of our people, and we hope that you want to be part of that as well.
[00:36:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Awesome too. And I think, like, as I'm Sitting over thinking this has turned into a, you know, a lessons in leadership conversation, right? Not just the, you know, the Danny Meyer story. These are all lessons in leadership. We went the rah rah route. Oh boy, did we blow that. Listen, everybody, please don't do this. Right? Do this.
[00:36:43] Speaker C: I have a question. Because it seems like everything you guys implemented, a lot of it was hard and didn't always necessarily make sense. It certainly wasn't the easy thing to do. But it all seems to tie back and you just said ethos and like a mission statement. It all seems like it's tied together and like you guys really stuck to what you believed in, whether it was going to be harder for the business or maybe not even the best thing on the surface. Right.
Did you have a mission statement or particular ethos that you guys always came back to like? Because we talk about mission statement a lot because I used to think they were bullshit and didn't say what are these? Until we started getting into it a little bit more and use that as like a metric measuring stick and always being able to come back to it. I'd be interested to see what that was inside that organization.
[00:37:36] Speaker A: So this might also sound a little woo woo to your, to your point earlier.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: Well, big. I make cardboard boxes. So it would be okay, right, if I thought everything was woo woo. But yeah, right. So yeah, for sure.
[00:37:46] Speaker A: So it was the virtuous cycle of enlightened hospitality.
[00:37:50] Speaker B: Holy hell, that is woo woo. Anyway.
[00:37:54] Speaker A: So what that, what that is is that we first take care of when we are more profitable. We put, we plow back the profits and taking even better care of our team members. So that was the ethos and the idea was that for all of our stakeholders in our ecosystem that they would experience both financial and emotional prosperity still kind of woo woo.
[00:38:57] Speaker B: No, no, no, listen, I'm kidding, but I'm not that mean. It's amazing. Like, I mean that is in it. You know, not everyone is driven exclusively by, by quantity of life. I mean, I think that quality piece and I think more and more too. I'm not saying that, you know, Tommy's generation doesn't need to pay their bills, but there's definitely, there's more roundedness or whole, there's more holistic look at the entire experience that's not exclusively the paycheck. And if you're not delivering it, then you can expect to pay the price in either turnover or never actually attracting the highest level performers that you need.
Interesting. Did you ever did any, at any time, did any of it ever feel like change for the sake of change? We talk a lot here about if things feel too calm, we'll sabotage it. Did you ever did any of it. Was there any of it with a leader like Danny Meyer, for example, or whomever the leader is, at any point where you're like, jesus, do we have to take on something else? Isn't this running? Okay. Did ever was any moments where you felt like it was change for the sake of change?
[00:39:56] Speaker A: I don't think for us it was change for the sake of change, but it felt like we were in a constant state of change.
[00:40:03] Speaker C: Always pushing the boulder up the hill just to climb down and push the next one.
[00:40:07] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. So. And we would take on really big changes.
[00:40:11] Speaker C: You guys were disruptors. I mean, and that's.
[00:40:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I think we were. Yeah, I think we were. And it was exhausting, too. If you're, if you're not using kind of. If you're not settling into a spot for a little bit before you take on the next change, it can, it can kind of be draining.
[00:40:25] Speaker B: Sure. And I was going to ask about fatigue. We talk about fatigue and ruts in exiting the business. Did you. Did you feel like you had done everything that there was to do? Was there an aspect of fatigue where. I mean, it's got to be hard to pull that level of performer in all the time, because certainly you and your two counterparts in that room, you had to have a similar drive and similar. Or energy because you could never feel like you were being dragged along. Right.
Or dragging someone along.
Talk about the fatigue. Because we talk about fatigue in here, which is reasonable.
[00:40:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So part of my life story was that I was also a single mom raising two kids on my own. At that point in time in my life, I cannot.
[00:41:07] Speaker C: I mean, now that I have one daughter, I say it constantly. I don't know how you could be a single parent and raise one kid end work, let alone. I mean, I just.
[00:41:18] Speaker A: It was. Yeah, we were trading au pair stories.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:41:21] Speaker C: Unbelievable. I mean, truly, all the respect.
[00:41:23] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you. And that all of those factors were really draining for me. And so that's when I. I felt like my relationship with my children was becoming transactional. It was just like the checklist of the stuff and not the relationship. And so that's when I told Danny that I gave him six months notice and I told him that I was going to take a year off, leave Union Square Hospitality Group, permanently find a replacement and take a year off to live overseas with my children and focus on rebuilding My relationship with them because the intensity of the work, the draining, prevented me from spending the quality time with the kids. I was spending time with them, but just I didn't have the emotional fortitude to ask probing questions and really invest in our relationship. And so I gave him six months notice and ended up leaving. June of 2020.
[00:42:20] Speaker C: Can you talk about that year? Did you take the full year off like you said?
[00:42:24] Speaker A: I did. I took the full year off.
June 2020 was Covid. Europe was closed and I had already rented out my house, so there were people moving in.
[00:42:34] Speaker B: So you're officially a nomad.
[00:42:36] Speaker A: I was officially a nomad.
[00:42:37] Speaker C: Two children.
[00:42:44] Speaker A: Two kids in tow. But we kept. We already had our. The kids had already been enrolled in the American school in Valencia. That's where we were going to go.
All the plans, best laid plans. Right.
And we just kept thinking that, you know, Europe was going to open up. It was only going to be a shutdown for whatever, like six weeks, etc. So packed up the car, got a U haul and went to Sanibel, Florida, because they had low Covid numbers.
[00:43:11] Speaker B: They didn't have a pandemic.
[00:43:13] Speaker A: They did not.
[00:43:13] Speaker B: No. No. Alabama. Alabama was spared as well, We've learned.
[00:43:19] Speaker A: Yep. There was no Covid down there.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: We would go visit our daughter Brooke at Auburn because they were pandemic.
[00:43:24] Speaker A: We went to Florida a lot.
[00:43:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Shoulder to shoulder in a bar where. Meanwhile, just a few states north. They were completely close, and we still chuckle about that. But you could say the same thing about Baltimore city and Baltimore county one mile apart. Boy, I love in your.
This is on this.
[00:43:38] Speaker C: I really want to hear about this year.
[00:43:40] Speaker B: I'm not going. I just want to say I love. I've never seen a LinkedIn profile where in the job lineup there was a very distinct celebratory sabbatical in there. So I don't know if you looked at her LinkedIn profile, but it says sabbatical.
[00:43:53] Speaker C: Oh, really?
[00:43:53] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. It's on her LinkedIn profile. That's how. That's. Yeah. And I. And I had it right at the top about how intentional you were about saying, I invested in my children and my relationships with them for 17 months. I think was something like that. Right. That was super cool.
[00:44:07] Speaker C: Never seen that devil's advocate here. Because, Aaron, you could get away with that because you had done so much and were so credible. Like, you can't throw that on a resume when you really haven't done that much.
[00:44:20] Speaker B: Tommy, don't pay attention. This is not your sabbatical moment.
[00:44:22] Speaker C: Like, that's like, I've worked my ass off. I'm fatigued. I'm rebuilding my relationship with my children. Like, all the respect in the world, as opposed to somebody that hasn't done a lot, hasn't worked that hard.
[00:44:32] Speaker A: Takes.
[00:44:33] Speaker C: You know, so there's certain types of people where that's cool.
[00:44:36] Speaker B: What's the other term, you know, when you don't. You don't get a job right after school? Break year.
[00:44:40] Speaker C: Gap year.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Gap year. Yes. That was not a gap year for you.
Yeah. I think you had earned that. You'd earned that break for sure.
[00:44:47] Speaker C: Okay, so you had. I getting back into it. You had the Hue Haul. You packed up Covid. What next?
[00:44:53] Speaker A: So we learned how to paddle board and how to fish, and we were down there for several months, and then Europe didn't open up. So then we went to the bayou, and we learned how to shrimp, and we learned how to kayak, and we went crabbing, and then Europe wasn't open yet. So we went to Bar Harbor, Maine, and we learned how to rock climb in Acadia national park. And Europe was not open yet.
[00:45:18] Speaker B: Yeah, Right.
[00:45:20] Speaker A: Then came back to Maryland and entered the family bubble during those times for several months. And I broke my arm and my parents took care of me and my sister and her family took care of the kids. And I had this epiphany moment of why the hell am I trying so hard to do all of this on my own, Right. Move back home, Aaron. Like, what are you doing?
[00:45:47] Speaker B: Right?
[00:45:48] Speaker A: But the sabbatical year wasn't over, so then we went to Hawaii and we learned how to surf and we went snorkeling. So that was awesome.
[00:45:56] Speaker C: Are you just renting places?
[00:45:58] Speaker A: Yes. All Airbnb. And the U Haul did not go to Hawaii, by the way.
And then came back home and started my job search officially here. And I saw the Post in the Baltimore Sun. I'm probably one of the very few people who found their position in an advertisement in a newspaper, but they were announced announcing the launch of the Leadership Institute, and I thought, you know what? I'm going to throw my hat in the ring.
[00:46:27] Speaker B: Wow.
What a great segue into this, too. So I'm excited. I'm super excited where we're going.
[00:46:32] Speaker C: I just have one last question about this. Last year, did you get what you were searching for in that one year sabbatical?
[00:46:41] Speaker A: I got most of it. What I was surprised with is how long it took me to deprogram. I kind of expected, like, from the packing the U Haul to getting to maybe like, three days, however many days it took us to get down there, that by the time I arrived, that I would have been emotionally reset. And what I realized was it. It took me three to four months to just kind of go, like, from this to, like, oh, I can. I can breathe and I can see things with more clarity than I had seen in a long time. So it took me longer than I was hoping it would.
[00:47:17] Speaker B: Did you. Did you struggle in those moments? This will. This will have a retirement question feel to it. I was speaking to someone that retired recently.
Needed in that part. That purpose aspect. Yeah.
[00:47:43] Speaker A: Huge, in fact. So I wrote the kids were not happy about moving to Europe. When I told them, they were really, really angry at me, and they said that I was being selfish.
[00:47:55] Speaker B: How old were they? Yeah, thank you.
[00:47:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that is a good question. I think they were 9 and 11.
[00:48:00] Speaker B: Okay, got it. So.
[00:48:01] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:48:02] Speaker B: I don't know what you were gonna say. 18 and 20. Like, I didn't know where we're going with this. Right, got it.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: 9 and 11. And so I wrote them a letter to try to not at that point in time, but future that they would read to help them understand why I made this decision. And in this letter, and I eventually posted it on LinkedIn because one of my dear friends who read it said, oh, my gosh, you know, how many more people would benefit from that? And I said, oh, my God, this is like the most vulnerable thing I've ever, like, written about. Sharing it with the world is terrifying. And she said, if it helps even one person, isn't it worth it?
[00:48:34] Speaker C: I need to find that.
[00:48:35] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:36] Speaker A: So in this letter, I talked about all of the fears of being irrelevant of my purpose, my self worth being connected to my professional accomplishments, of people thinking that I was a quitter, of not being able to get another job. I mean, I was terrified, but I was more terrified of losing them than all those things were real fears. But I was so much more terrified of losing them that I felt almost compelled to make that decision. And they did read the letter.
I think it was about two years ago that I finally showed them the letter. And they understand now. I mean, they're 17 and 14 now.
[00:49:18] Speaker B: Okay. Their frontal lobe has formed more where they can actually start to get into that. Right. Wow, that's amazing. What a cool story. I'm glad we got to that.
[00:49:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:49:40] Speaker B: Put it on the fridge. I have, but then it's stainless, so it falls off. God damn it. Yeah, I got it. So, yeah.
[00:49:47] Speaker C: So what attracted you to that? Posting as like your first job back after your one year. Like what was it? You're like, I need to do that.
[00:49:55] Speaker A: First of all. Dr. Grozmack. Yeah.
[00:49:57] Speaker B: You know, and did you know, did you know of Nancy's legacy? Of course. Like, who doesn't?
[00:50:01] Speaker A: But I saw, I would see her on TV as I was growing up and I, I was just so impressed with first of all, that she was the first female state superintendent. And I just thought, oh my gosh, girls can do that. Like, that was amazing to me. And she had that position for 20 years and so she just, she has such, such just so much experience to bring forward and is so well respected. And I thought if I have a chance to work with her and learn from her, yeah, I'm all in. And then the idea of supporting a leadership institute that was created for the public good in order to help to uplift our region was just connected to not only my professional experiences but to my personal passions. Because there aren't great organizations without great leaders. And when we have great organizations that are, that are really thriving, then our communities thrive. Right. And so, and when our communities thrive, our region gets uplifted. Right. So that is what connected me to the opportunity. And I think it was a seven month interview process.
[00:51:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I bet that was a beast. I can only imagine what that looked like.
[00:51:18] Speaker A: And it was also a great learning opportunity because I got to meet so many people at Towson University throughout the process.
[00:51:26] Speaker B: So, so, so, so shameless plug moment. Right? We always, we had MT bank shameless plug moment. So give our audience an idea or give us your, you know, your elevator. Talk about the Nancy Grasmic Leadership Institute and some of the different things that you do.
Real nutsy bolts. Because if you're listening and you're not then finding this and getting your, if you run a business, there are team members. We've had two team members and we've talked about it on our podcast before for sure. Two team members go through the, what is the exact program called that our team went through? It was a next level leaders. Yeah, next level. Eight month. Yeah, eight month commitment. But again, so well done. So respectful of us as a company. You know, having looked at a lot of other programs, they were somewhat onerous on the time of everybody work a full day and then go spend an hour a night. I mean they were totally unreasonable and unrealistic. Asks for what I'm sure would have been great material. But if it doesn't align, it doesn't align. You know, it doesn't, it doesn't work. And that was the first thing I recognized about how well it was laid out from that part, because that's a non starter, you know, if you can't execute around it because you have a family and you still have to perform here. And there was a reasonable ask and investment for everybody involved. The participant, us as the employer. What the leadership Institute brings. Fantastic.
[00:52:48] Speaker A: Thank you. Thank you for saying that. So not surprisingly, Dr. Grazmick funded two years of research before we even got off the ground. And the reason why I think our programming is so unique and meets the needs of organizations is because there was a tremendous amount of stakeholder research led by Caitlin Bowman to understand what are the unmet leadership development needs that leaders have. And time was a huge component of that.
And so we have those types of programs, the signature programs, next level leaders.
We shifted the timing a little bit, so it's now four months, but it's full day.
We have that program that's fully underwritten by Whiting Turner. So as you know, there's no fee. We have the professional leadership program for women, which is four months. We have Spark Brilliance, which is for executives. So those are our kind of longer and duration transformative programs for organizations and for individuals, when that makes sense. If people don't have that level of time to be able to commit, then we have also one or two day workshops that we offer for $25 a day thanks to generosity of Whiting Turner and also St. John Properties who have underwritten our programming. And we do that, we make it financially accessible because we want people to access the content if they can get the one or two days off of work, we want them to come in and get the content. And then we also go into organizations and we deliver a cascade of leadership development programming. So we just worked with Atlas Restaurant Group and Department of General Services and we'll come in. We start with the most senior leaders and we run them through a two day workshop. And then we cascade to the middle level managers and then to the frontline supervisors. And that way the transformation is within an individual organization and it's mobilized at every single level. And there's kind of a vernacular, a common language that the leaders are all speaking to one another with.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: And remind me and the audience, this is year number three. Didn't we just celebrate your third anniversary together? Okay, that's what I thought. So what's the future look like? We talked about your prior experience, necessary to do what's needed in a world that looks like this one.
[00:55:32] Speaker A: So what's Next for us. It's interesting because when we first started, and Caitlin always likes to tease me about this, but when we first started, by year three, we were going to be up and down the east coast.
[00:55:44] Speaker C: I have right here expansion question mark.
[00:55:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:55:47] Speaker A: And I think we've delivered sessions in maybe six counties so far in.
So we're not quite yet to the up and down the east coast, but, you know, by year five, I was hoping we'd be international, but, you know, I have to kind of dial those dreams.
[00:56:00] Speaker B: So more of an immersive approach. That's okay, right? That's amazing.
[00:56:04] Speaker A: What we've learned is that the need was so great that it just made sense for us to connect locally and really go. Instead of it being kind of a breadth, we're going deep into organizations to support them and hopefully that will serve as the strong foundation upon which to build so that we can continue to expand. And I'm still hopeful for, you know, across the United States, maybe at some point internationally, but certainly expansion would be our next step.
[00:56:33] Speaker C: I mean, clearly you've added go deep, not wide.
[00:56:35] Speaker B: That's right. That's right.
[00:56:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:56:36] Speaker B: I think we say that somewhere around here. I mean, clearly, you specificity. Clearly you've activated a truly significant level of demand. Right. The reason that you're in six counties is because you've identified an overwhelming amount of demand right here. I mean, why get on planes, trains and automobiles when you have a massive audience to service here? And then I. If you were to. I mean, one of the challenges that would occur to me if I was. If I was thinking about this is what you do is quite unique. And I don't. And again, we're really careful here. Like, no, I'm a one off. Or it's so nuanced that there's nothing. But it's. I know it's unique because of. I've never seen anything like it. As someone that's pitched training of all different types of all different kinds, leadership and all of it, it's truly unique on the things that we just hit on. Right. The. The commitment of each of the three pieces, the individual, the leadership institute, me.
One of the challenges that would hit me is how do you reproduce that offering in other locales to the quality level? I mean, part of what makes it so unique is you, Caitlin, the fact that Dr. Grasmik is here. How do you recreate the reproduction of that to me could seem to be a challenge without suffering anything that looks like a quality drop.
[00:57:54] Speaker A: Right.
Those are the exact growing pains that we are experiencing right now. And we just ran our very first Train the Trainer session. And I think we had 15 people in that session where we brought them together to try to train them not just on the content, but on the facilitation. Because we're trying to teach the art of how to bring out. Teaching the content, but bringing it out of each individual, each unique human that's in the room. And when that happens, the takeaways are so much more powerful for the individuals.
Yeah.
[00:58:35] Speaker C: Now my question for you is because there's going to be a lot of people listening to this that are interested in this institute as they should be. So could you walk us through what it would look like? And I'm going to pick. I'm going to pick a specific program, that being the professional leadership program for women, because we do have a high female audience here.
What would that look like? That's a. You said four month program. Walk us through that.
[00:59:01] Speaker B: Yeah. What's that cadence?
[00:59:03] Speaker A: Yeah, sure.
[00:59:04] Speaker C: And also the content of what.
[00:59:06] Speaker A: So this is our 10th year actually running it because even though the Leadership Institute is three years new, this program was started by Dr. Grazmick 10 years ago. Of course, of course, of course, of course.
And we typically have between 25 and 30 women. It's application based, so you need to be invited to participate in the program because we're trying to ensure that we have diversity of perspective and industry and role and function and generation in the room. And we meet every other Tuesday, starting in February, and it's full day nine to three, and we end in May with a celebratory toast. The types of things that we are working on, we focus a lot on emotional intelligence. We focus on navigating conflict. We focus on setting boundaries. We focus on helping women to find their voice so communication skills.
We focus on taking courageous risks and kind of pairing people up to have a conversation about exploring what that might actually look like. And we talk a lot about embracing our ambition and how to be unapologetic for being ambitious and not thinking of that as a dirty word.
So that's how we spend our four months together.
[01:00:32] Speaker C: I'm glad I picked that particular program because there is this idea and notion that, well, why would you have a program just for women? Like women leaders and men, male leaders are the same and they're not. And I think it's. I think it's so ridiculous when people have that debate because as females, socially, we're brought up differently and we have different challenges. And if we are in the room not all of us, but a lot of us in the room. With males, there's going, we're either going to lack confidence or not ask certain questions or we just aren't living the same experience.
You know, we're not, we're not responding and reacting and interacting with people the same. And there is a differentiation. So I think like the idea of having it split and be very personal to female is so important and you guys have done the research, so to back that idea up. What are your takes on that?
[01:01:27] Speaker A: So I could not agree more. And one interesting statistic is that women will only apply for a position when they have 100% of the qualifications versus men who will apply with 60% of the qualification.
Even though at the beginning of the most entry level position, we are approximately gender split about 50, 50 by the time that we get to the C suite. Women represent only 28% of those positions, of which women of color only represent six.
[01:02:04] Speaker B: Wow.
[01:02:04] Speaker A: So there's a huge drop off just as a result of that one statistic because too often we are wired to strive for perfection.
[01:02:12] Speaker B: And how do you so, so you, you hit the word data right on the word how do you. Obviously my hope is that we're getting better at that as a society and, and, and that through, through institute and leadership, institute organizations like yours, that women are competing differently, participating differently, everything you talked about. So how do you keep up with or what is the, the research look like? Because you'll have to continue to evolve how you're speaking to that audience when, you know, moxie comes through. Right? Moxie experience of this world versus our oldest Brooke, who's 22.
[01:02:49] Speaker A: Right.
[01:02:49] Speaker B: You'd have two very unique audience members. How do you, what are the methods by which you stay up on that research and that you are building the next toolbox? Because the tools are going to need to look different as these generations come through. How do you keep up on what the right toolbox looks like?
[01:03:06] Speaker A: Well, there's certainly the research on the toolbox and there's also the power of the cohort that goes through this program as well. Because even though the program ends in four months, leadership is a lifelong journey. Right. And so the women that are coming out of this program need continuous support, reinforcement, you know, sharpening the tools that they, that they learned. And that's where it's the power of the cohort. Because in the program they receive the tools and the experiences and hopefully they have the memories of what they went through, but then they also have one another. Right. So when you leave that program and you're trying to figure out the next step or you are engaging in a really challenging situation at work that you can pick up the phone and reach out to the other incredible, amazing, talented women that were in that program and get the support, the advocacy and the encouragement that you need to be able to take that next step. So it's. It's part content and tool and then part connection.
[01:04:07] Speaker B: And how big is that cohort again?
[01:04:09] Speaker A: Typically? 25 to 30.
[01:04:10] Speaker B: Wow, that's amazing. So you got 25 sisters speaking the same language you do. Right. That's awesome.
[01:04:16] Speaker C: And I imagine that that alum piece, if you will, is very important and going to continue to be as your program or institute grows and gets a little bit older. Have you done anything in the way of like facilitating an alum community or a cohort community?
[01:04:32] Speaker A: So our. Typically there's usually one or two alums that take charge for their class, so to speak. Right. That plan all the reunions, which is awesome to experience. And this year, because it's our 10 year, we're going to bring everybody back and throw a big party and give the women the opportunity to not only reconnect with their cohort, but to meet the other women of the. Of the previous nine years.
[01:04:55] Speaker B: So question the alums that take that, take the lead. Do they designate that or do they just surface as the is? That's what you were saying?
[01:05:05] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, Yep.
[01:05:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Because the definition of leader is you have followers. Right. It's that simple. I ask that question around here a lot. What's the definite leader? Everybody wants to over complicate it with all of these very sophisticated answers. It's as simple as you have followers, and that's often overlooked. And it's that simple.
[01:05:24] Speaker C: Mick, you had a couple of teammates that went through some of the programs, I think the same program. Can you speak to their experience? I mean, this isn't a commercial, but we know that this has been very powerful and impactful in some of your employees.
[01:05:37] Speaker B: Yeah. What I can speak to is noticeable changes since they came back and confidence, certainly one of them. And one of the big noticeable takeaways where trying different things, attempting different things and, and, and part technical skill. Right. There was. You could, for example, negotiating. Right. I know, I know. Although I've never attended, I know there is some. Some discussion and. Or modules, if you will, around negotiating because I recognized my relationship with them changing in spots. It's like, well, Alfonso somehow wants to negotiate that all of a sudden. That's not something we ever did before. Damn you, Aaron. But that was one. So that confidence piece, but part technical, right. That how you would go about negotiating, but then also wrapped in the confidence to even start that conversation.
That was one that I absolutely noticed.
Back to taking the leadership role, you have followers leading their individual group. And I think it comes back to the technical piece, but all engendered in the confidence, right? Because you gave them those skills. They never feel like they're on an island. They have the technical expertise and they have the process in the back of their mind to negotiate those situations that they didn't have. Therefore, they'd never even taken on. They would even put themselves into that position. So I would say those were the two most noticeable in. In those individuals returning and then watching how they performed after they returned. So, yeah, yeah, it was really, really fun and, and fascinating too, because, I mean, I love it. And as the person, the other thing I, I know about it, it's difficult for companies our size to find great training programs. I mean, there's all of the big national ones and they're franchised and, and you know, they take a great idea from someone way back when and, you know, and you're dealing with location 57, you know, or something like that, and. And it's. And it becomes a little diluted and it's a little bit different message. And not to say that's not okay because it has to be appropriate for your market and your audience, but to find truly transformational programs like this is rare. And this is definitely one.
[01:07:51] Speaker A: Thank you for sharing that.
[01:07:52] Speaker C: And there's not a particular. Right. Candidate. I mean, this is. Right. This, anybody can. Can be a great candidate. I mean, this is universally, universally applicable, right?
[01:08:04] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[01:08:05] Speaker C: Okay, if somebody's looking like, as an employer or an employee, how do they find more information? How do they apply? Next steps?
[01:08:16] Speaker A: Grasmic Leadership Institute. Just Google that and that will take you to our website and then click on Signature Programs, and that's where the application and information are.
[01:08:27] Speaker C: Do you find just in case there's employers listening, Is it typically. I mean, I don't know how you did it. Is it employers bringing this to their employees as an opportunity? Is it employees finding you and bringing it to their employer? I guess a bit of both.
[01:08:42] Speaker A: It's a bit of both. But typically we ask the organization to nominate the person that they want to influence and impact.
[01:09:03] Speaker B: And how many. And just in the program, for example, that we participated in, how many have you graduated out of that program in your. In the few years that you've been.
[01:09:11] Speaker A: Around so I'm 67.
[01:09:14] Speaker B: Okay. Wow. Yeah. So. And at some point, you know, that'll, that'll start to get infectious inside of these organizations where their friends want to go. So. And now I know it's more of a top down field. Yes. So I got the information from Aaron and Caitlyn and said, who in this group, you know, is our executives and our director level I thought were appropriate for that type of training? Let them put their name in the hat. But I imagine there's going to be a groundswell back up someone coming to me and saying, well, I want to do that. And I can't wait for the first person to come and say, I want to do that. I'm going to say, well, hurry up already. Right. Yeah, I'm, I've got my commitment and you've got your commitment and if you want to make that commitment, then I want you in there.
[01:09:53] Speaker C: But you have to, as we're talking about high performers, you have to believe that that person or they have to be a high performer because it's an investment from you as an employer saying, listen, you can take every Tuesday or whatever the requirement is because you believe that this individual is going to be able to take what they learn and then come back and apply it and impact your organization.
[01:10:16] Speaker B: Well, that's why I love it, because I, I recognize how evenly balanced it is. That was my gripe with a lot of other programs. I even went so far as to sit with one of the local community colleges to listen to their curriculum that they had developed. And it was onerous. It was completely impossible what they were going to ask of everybody. Right. I mean, and I think that's the difference between maybe some of the academia or the academic approaches to this versus coming at it from the leadership side and developing a curriculum versus coming in from the academia side. Very different look. And, and what I recognized was how balanced it was saying, look, if you're in, I'm in. I already know that, that Aaron's in. If you're in, I'm in. And that's a good meeting point.
[01:11:01] Speaker C: This was awesome. I, I mean I could seriously, we.
[01:11:03] Speaker B: Could have done long form to give Rogan a run today. I think with this one we had worn him out four hours.
[01:11:13] Speaker C: Yeah, we could have. Aaron, thank you so much. Really appreciate. I, I learned so much about you, which was cool, but also so many takeaways about leadership. And, and seriously, we might have to do a part two.
[01:11:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:11:27] Speaker C: Nothing else for my own curiosity. So, yeah, if I'm curious, somebody else must be.
[01:11:31] Speaker B: We might as well record it if we're gonna have the conversation, so. Yeah, I totally agree.
[01:11:34] Speaker A: Thank you both so very much for the.
[01:11:36] Speaker B: Absolutely. What a blast. And this is our 50th. This is our 50th. So. So cheers on that. Yeah. Cheers. We got. Cheers to that. What a blast. Thank you, Tommy. Thank you.
Welcome to a talk for the superstars tonight. Tonight.
Incredible. Incredible, incredible.
