Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Let's talk about some of the features that come with a promotion.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: You're going to be trusted to make decisions at a higher level than maybe.
[00:00:08] Speaker A: You were before as an employer, what you value in an employee.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: I would want to see this thread.
[00:00:14] Speaker A: Of consistency had they prepared, because I want to know that they care enough.
[00:00:19] Speaker B: Don't wait until that role opens up and hope someone will figure out that you are worthy of it. Go in and say welcome to H. Rodney Property Talks for The Children's Times.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: 2025 is the year of your promotion and we're here to give you the tools to accomplish that. In this episode we discuss what managers value, how to build a strong case for yourself, and how to avoid the traps that will get you passed over. So let's get into it. And don't forget, please subscribe if you like this episode. Define your definition of promotion.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: So promotion for me, few different scenarios that I think would have someone being promoted. The first one that comes to mind is when a position opens up inside of a company. You know, other other opportunities would have. Let's just say you're an explosive growth company and it's. The demand is creating the need for all types of positions. And I think we can get into that. But I think for more traditional, mature maybe is a better word to use businesses like ours, that movement happens when a space is vacated for whatever reason. It could be that somebody moved up, which means somebody else gets to move up whatever the situations are. But I, I think the one that is most natural or most likely for us is when a space is vacated and you're looking for the successor. I think that's the best way to look at it.
[00:01:53] Speaker A: So the opportunity for promotion is situational. It's. There's not always opportunity for promotion in every company. And but as we were talking about off camera, pay raises versus promotions are very different and I think sometimes they get confused or used the same way interchangeably, but they're very different things. Can you explain the difference between a pay raise? In my eyes, a pay raise is just you're getting a raise for doing the same thing you have been do or not the same thing, the same position you have been in.
[00:02:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I would agree.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: Right.
[00:02:32] Speaker B: Yeah. I think in my mind if you say promotion to me one of the first things that enters is that there's going to be some type of change in the organizational chart. Right. That's, that's. I think that's the definition for me that resonates most would be to say that that someone is moving into a different position on the organizational chart than they are now. And let's assume that it, that it's vertical, it's up on, on the organizational chart which, which comes with everything that you would expect in moving up the.
[00:03:02] Speaker A: Organizational chart ladder, which I thought important to clarify. That is the, the topic today. The difference is that, you know, we're not sitting here talking about a pay raise in the current position. We're talking about a promotion.
[00:03:15] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:03:15] Speaker A: Which is a different thing and clearly different than a raise.
[00:03:19] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:03:20] Speaker A: Okay. So with a promotion there comes a lot of different features as we've called it, both the good and what some may perceive as bad. But they're all included. You don't just get one without the other. So let's talk about some of the features that come with a promotion. Do you want to start with whatever you'd like?
[00:03:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I bulleted some off here just, just thinking about. And a lot of times I'll start with Arnold Packaging and what it looks like inside of our organization. But then try not to be so myopic that I wouldn't think about larger companies and the way they might proceed or, or it would look. But, but I also do come back pretty quickly because I, I truly believe that large companies are, are collections of groups of people. Right. And, and that may all wind up into a behemoth like Procter and Gamble just to pick a name that everybody knows. But if you were to drill down into it and you were look at the toothpaste division and the diaper division and all the different things that they do, at some point you would probably find an 80ish person organization inside that wouldn't look too terribly different from Arnold Packaging. So I, I think that's the piece. I mean resources could be different. Maybe certain responsibilities are different because of that larger stage. Maybe your.
Relates to what you have to do from a reporting perspective, maybe you're publicly traded. So there could be pressures that look a little different than a smaller organization. But I still end up coming back to the idea that even the largest companies are multiple collections of smaller groups that, that wind up into a big thing that, you know, that does billions and billions of dollars. So one of the, one of the things I think that are, that's most obviously is you're going to be taking on significantly more, you know, and that's a really big broad term. Like what does that mean? I think it means any number of things. It could mean that your decision making is under less scrutiny. Right. Which would also have that Autonomy. Look to it. You're going to be more autonomous. You're going to be trusted to make decisions at a higher level than maybe you were before, you know, where. Let's just say in your prior role, if you were down a rung on the organizational chart, you would have run this group of decisions through somebody that was above you. Well, now since you're in that role, you are calling the shots on that level and therefore you have responsibility. And if you are making the go, no go call and it fails, that falls back on you. So that's an example of responsibility that you would pick up as part of a promotion or moving up the organizational chart.
[00:05:55] Speaker A: And I will add to that. And most likely these decisions are. They're larger, they're more impactful decisions. So as you're promoted through a company, you know, your company is ultimately saying, we're trusting you with decisions that are going to make a more significant impact on our organization. And that also comes with added risk. Added risk for you as the employee, but also your entire organization.
[00:06:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:06:26] Speaker A: So talk to me more about the risk that comes with promotion, because I think this is something that gets overlooked a little bit in that process.
[00:06:34] Speaker B: Well, it would, it would seem. I think it would seem easy to. For team members to think that they would just plug in. I don't always know that there is a complete understanding of the width and the depth of the role of the person that you work for. And just to put it that way, and I promise you there are things that go on that you would be protected from or insulated from. Not to keep you out of the process, but there's not time to explain or discuss everything that goes on all the time. And I know in talking to people that have been promoted here, or let's just say they were a director in our organization and moved up and they were direct reporting to me. I know. I've had conversations where it was, wow, I didn't know that. The scope of this job also included X and Y.
[00:07:21] Speaker A: So fair to say it's almost like you're opening up a curtain or a door to a different room that somebody hasn't necessarily been in.
[00:07:27] Speaker B: Yes, but I don't mean it like Merlin behind the curtain, where you're trying to be opaque.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: It's just that there's not time always to communicate every single responsibility that you have. Or some of them are large, but they don't come up with a lot of frequency. You know, like, well, I haven't made this decision in a while. Things give me an example, things that have a term associated with them like insurance. Right. So things like that come up. But staying on, on the promotion piece, I don't know that, that every single time the person that is, that wants to be included or, or considered for promotion prior to understands the, the width and the depth of the responsibility that comes with it.
[00:08:08] Speaker A: Sure.
So with risk and more responsibility can also come this, this third feature called sacrifice. And I have personally had conversations with employees that were looking for, I would say both promotions and pay raises about this thing and laying it out like, well, you're going to have to spend more time, it's going to be way more than the 40 hours just to get all of the work done to fulfill the responsibility. And it might mean some weekend work, it might mean some late hours at night and, and that might mean missing some time with your kids or a practice soccer practice. Right.
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Specific things.
[00:08:49] Speaker A: And I have had employees say I don't want to do that.
[00:08:52] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:52] Speaker A: That's like I'm not signing up for that. And my response back is, well, unfortunately that's what is required of this. So we're not aligned and it's not going to work. And I think you have to be very clear about that. And I think as the employee wanting to be considered for this promotion, you have to be very self aware and very honest with yourself of what you're asking for and are you ready to accept all of it? Not just, not just the autonomy, not just the pay raise, not just the added responsibility. Maybe that comes with reports, direct reports that you've been looking to manage people. It's also going to come with more time, more energy. You're gonna have to spend more risk, more sacrifice and those you have to want all of it.
[00:09:37] Speaker B: Right. And I think, you know, if this episode is about Getting promoted in 2025, this is the build up to it. This would be, you know, a checklist of sorts to say make sure that you are prepared for all of this right before we get to the piece, when you're laying out or if you're in a position to make the case to be considered, you make sure that you, you have all of these bases covered. Or it can end up being a be careful what you wish for moment where you know, let's say you do get into the role and, and, and maybe you got there because there's a high trust level, you know, if you're coming from inside of the organization versus out. And let's just say I'm, you know, I'm talking to you Because I want to be considered for that role. We have a high level of trust. We could have the potential or the risk could be that we gloss over certain things and we don't find them out until I move into the role. And it's, oh, goodness, somehow we forgot to talk about this because there is a propensity to cut corners, if you will, when you're interviewing internally, or if not cut corners, you make assumptions that that person, by virtue of being there, already knows all there is to know about that job. And that's very difficult. That's, that's rarely the case. And having interviewed some people that were vying for internal promotions, right, a job opened up and someone a rung down said, I think I'm capable or qualified. Had to be very, very intentional and very aware of the dangers of saying, well, of course you know about that, right? You've, you've been watching your direct manager do this for a long time now. Of course you know their job. Not necessarily. That's not exactly accurate at all.
[00:11:18] Speaker A: The last point I will add to, to, to this conversation right here specifically is that I think the grass isn't always greener. It is something that's applicable here. And you could say, like, listen, sometimes if you're happy in what you're doing and it's fulfilling you like that, that's okay. You don't always have to be looking for the promotion. I'm someone that I typically am. I'm hard charging, I want to grow, I want to push. And I think a lot of people listening to this episode are high performers and they're going to want to be looking for that promotion, but it's okay not to be. And the grass isn't always greener, so just be self aware.
[00:11:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I know absolutely all great points. And I think you have to be. You have to be, you have to be prepared and you have to have your expectations set around the idea that you could get a not yet, right, not necessarily a no. And in any number of my recent hiring endeavors, there were times when I interviewed some candidates. They were outside, but I knew them. So unique situation where I have a relationship with somebody, I've worked with them and a customer, I've worked with them and a supplier, and I actually told them about the role and even suggested they put their name in the hat for that job. And it turned out that there were candidates that were better. And I had to go back and say, I don't, I don't know that this is a no, but this, I believe, is A not yet. You know, you're not far along enough in your career. There are some things that are missing, and I think you have to. You have to be really honest with yourself and set expectations around that you could get a not yet. And I hope it's a not yet, because if you take it that way and you. You would ask. I mean, I would be asking exit interview questions. So tell me, what about the current state of my capabilities would needed to be better for me to get a yes, right? And you take that. You know, we talk about sports a lot. You know, if you. If you fail to get up and down from the bunker five, you'd go work on your sand game to get better. It would be the same type of question you would ask as part of that process to say, well, what do I need to go work on? Or what do I need to go get better at? So that next time I sit in this chair in front of you, I do get a yes. So that's part of the process too.
[00:13:31] Speaker A: So I think we've done a nice job of setting the stage of what a promotion is. Specifically, let's get into, as an employer, what you value in an employee that's. That's looking for a promotion, or who are the folks that you're. You find yourself most likely to promote. Promote. What are the common threads?
[00:13:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I want to go back too, because I want to make sure that we're very clear that what we're talking about is how to get promoted. We're talking about 2025. Right. It has a turn the leaf feel to it, a resolution feel, which I'm not a fan of, but I do like that reset piece. It's like, all right, let's. Let's, you know, let's add up all of our morsels and see where we are and then go forward with. With that. So it does have that type of feel to it, but I've never heard.
[00:14:11] Speaker A: But like that.
[00:14:11] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I just made it up on the fly. That's how I do most of the time. Let's put our morsels together and capture them and count them and figure out how to make more morsels, whatever. Right.
I was in an xlax plan all morning, so you're gonna have to bear with me. I could run on a little. Nope.
I had to do it. Had to do it. So I want to be very clear that, you know, this is. This is a building process. Right? I. I think you have to be in a position to. To be able to look at your. Your life's work, your book of work. Not just at that company but prior right. There was company wanted you there. So that's all building up and into your experience. And I would suggest that the higher level that you are vying for in a larger company, just suggesting there's more rungs on the ladder of a bigger company than a smaller company, you're going to be taking all of that life's work with you. It wouldn't just be here's what I've done at Tegla or Brit. It would be. Well, if you'll recall, prior to coming to teglr, I did this and those were all the things you loved about me. And since I've been here, I've done. And you'd be laying out what would be a dossier of your life's work and you'd be positioning such that it would be a demonstration that you have done what's necessary to be capable of this role that you're vying for.
[00:15:31] Speaker A: Yes. And before we get into actually building your business case when you are, are going in for promotion, let's, let's take one step back into just those, those qualities you see in most people, generally speaking.
[00:15:46] Speaker B: Right. So pulling out of that, which I should have been more intentional about, the first one I would pick out would be consist. Right. For me, that's, that's one, that's one of the biggest ones is, is I, I want someone close to me and, and as. As part of my most direct team that is consistent and I have a pretty good idea what to expect from them. And I don't mean that in a boring way. I mean that in a reliable way where there's a track record there of consistency and, and, and performance. But, but I want to really stick on that.
That has, that engenders trust. There's so many other words for me that come out of consistency that I think that would be something if I was looking at, at someone's work, I would want to see this, this thread of consistency woven throughout their entire career.
[00:16:39] Speaker A: And track record trust and loyalty.
[00:16:41] Speaker B: Yep, absolutely.
[00:16:42] Speaker A: And I, when we're talking about consistency, I mean that in a multitude of ways. I mean it. Consistency literally showing up to the job. You have people in the manufacturing plan who are making things. They have to physically be there to make things. I'm talking about the consistency and the quality of work. I'm talking about consistency in the way someone shows up. I'm talking about consistency in their attitude. Are they, generally speaking, very positive. Are they a good teammate? Are they Supportive. All of that falls into that consistency category. And for anyone that's listened to just a couple of episodes, they would know how much you and I value consistency in everything. Not just as we're talking about promotions, we talk about the mundanity of excellence, which is all about consistently showing up good every single day. We were talking about right now my passion is running. And beyond anything else, the difference between like, what makes me a better runner, Anyone, I believe, like what is the key to progression as a runner? It is simply showing up every single day, whether you feel like it or not, in any condition and running. It's not about the, the recovery tools, it's not about what type of workout, it's not about the nutrition. Yeah, those might affect it a little bit, but at the end of the day, strip it all back. The real key is consistency and I believe that to be with everything.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: Right. Those would be the enhancements. I mean I would consider this Enhancements. Yeah, supplements and like literally we get caught up.
[00:18:17] Speaker A: It's so easy to get caught up on all the accessory bullshit. It. Oh sure, that's like, like what about the main thing?
[00:18:23] Speaker B: Well, we come from such a quick fix culture, right. Anything that would be a supplement would, could have a feel of shortcut, which means I wouldn't have to do the work. And that's the exact opposite of what we're talking about here. It's doing the work and it's about the repetitions and, and you know, and if you've worked with the person that you're interviewing with, they probably were there to supervise some of those repetitions as well, which is a great thing. That, that would just engender confidence and knowing what they were competing, which you are right. No one is just walking into the job. I guess it happens from time to time. But I can tell you around here we're going to go to the outside market, we're going to consider internal. So you are going to be competing. But boy, if, if you have already built that out, let's just say you and I as candidates are exactly the same. Right. We have, we're, we're, we're a push as far as capability. But I've demonstrated to the, the person that is entering, interviewing for this role consistency. And you. I've only been able to tell stor your consistency. Then you would like to think that I would have the absolute inside track.
[00:19:27] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:19:28] Speaker B: And when. Not just inside track.
[00:19:29] Speaker A: When, when. Yes. A second one for me is figure it out factor. And that's something I've, I'VE definitely got that terminology from you.
And figured out factor for me, again, I'm pulling from your definition of is, is exhausting all resources. Is that. I'll let you. What is it? How do you exhaust.
[00:19:47] Speaker B: Yeah, that's exhausting all resources and attempting everything else before you would come to me for the answer and, and doing it in a somewhat exhaustive way, not inefficient. Right. Where you start looking, you start checking boxes on looking for the sake of looking, where you've truly used all of your tools. And here's the thing that's so different now. The toolbox is massive. You know, I, I will tell you that as a younger professional, I tapped out pretty quick. You know, I mean, short of getting an encyclopedia, I'm old enough that when I was in my early 20s, you didn't have all of these resources laying down, served a phone or some type of a device. So I will tell you that I tapped out very quickly and would be in front of someone saying, I need help. You know, I need help. So at least for me, in that figured out factor. And if we're going back to demonstrating that, it would be that you would have been doing and trying every single thing you could and then at some point you would even transition into anticipating those needs too. But that's, that's what figured out factor means for me.
[00:20:48] Speaker A: And so I will tell you, the employees that I value the most are ones that really have this figured out factor. But even more than that a step further is they have found a way to strike a balance between being very diligent and prepared and working through questions and projects and getting a lot done on their own, but not in a way that is reckless because they didn't want to ask the question or be a burden or let their ego get in the way. So they ask the question when it needs to be asked. But they've already answered questions A through M. They've gotten there. They just need that last question that they can't get on Google or anywhere else to get it across the finish line. But they've done all the work prior. So it's like they found a way to just do a lot on their own, get a lot of stuff done, be very, very efficient, but not in a way where it's reckless and they're just like trudging through a wall and making mistakes because they didn't want to ask the question. And I have an example is an employee right now who's, who's come in and granted he does have 20 years of experience in the industry. So he's starting, his name's Josh, a new, new project manager, starting a leg.
[00:22:08] Speaker B: You spoke a lot about Josh in the onboard. Yeah, our audience knows Josh well.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: He's done a really good job with this and I think what he has done so well is he has been able to come in and assess risks of projects so he can look at one and say, and maybe the risk is, it's just, it's just not a big contract and maybe he's super familiar with the products and he's going to take a little bit more liberties on that project and move a little bit faster and rely more on himself to get it done as opposed to another project which might be a little larger of a contract. Maybe some products he's not as familiar with and there's more risk associated. He may come to me a little bit more, not so much. He's still doing the work, as much work as he can, but he may defer to me a little bit more. And he is just assessing the risk on those projects and he's done just such a nice job. I think his figured out factor is so high and that's something I value so much and what he's brought to the table.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: Right. I think back to that risk piece, which is interesting. Again, giving some counsel here on the things that you would be doing to vie for that promotion back. I use that football field analogy, right. I mean, there are times when, you know, Josh is comfortable to punch it into the end zone on his own. There are times that he runs it up to the one and says, britt, I'd like to invite you into this conversation because I think you, I think you should either punch it in yourself or you should shove me across or something along those lines. And, and back to our onboarding episode. Rob, you were talking about Josh and I was talking about Rob in the onboarding episode. He had one recently that involved a pollution insurance coverage, which it came through and he I'm happy to give the green light unless you want to. And it was, no, you own this, please give the green light. But he ran it up to the one foot line and then just said, who's punching this in? I'm happy to do it, but I felt like this was a big enough deal that we should, we should talk for a second, which was literally one email before I said, you own it, go. And that was it.
[00:24:04] Speaker A: And I think this is a great lesson for anyone that's vying for a promotion. It's like it's A balance between taking initiative and being a leader, but also being very willing to take direction and being very curious and wanting to learn. It's like you have to do all of it. You have to have initiative, you have to take charge, you have to go after. But you also have to defer to other people and be able to take feedback. It's just that mix of doing a really good job of finding a balance, which is hard.
And sometimes it just takes time to be. To be able to figure that out.
[00:24:41] Speaker B: It does. It's that part of.
It's part of that reading the room thing, which is another one too.
[00:24:47] Speaker A: No doubt. A couple more I have and I can rattle these off. They're pretty, pretty self explanatory. I'm just. I love people that are passionate about what they do and that are like. I really value good old fashioned hard work. Period. Work ethic. Another one. Attention to detail. And I do mean attention to detail. I don't mean creating a quote and proposal and getting the numbers right. I mean formatting it so that all of the text is the same. It's the same size, it's the same type of test. It's a text, it's a lot. It's formatted with perfect alignment. If you're emailing somebody, you're succinct and your grammar is right. I'm talking attention to detail. You may call me ocd, I just call it caring.
[00:25:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: And that presentation matters.
[00:25:30] Speaker B: I agree. And in a world where sometimes those differentiators are the difference between winning and losing, that really matter. Yeah. If you're selling two by fours, your two by fours look like somebody else's two by four. Sometimes the differentiator is what you do and wrapping yourself around them. Whether it's responsiveness or.
[00:25:44] Speaker A: I was gonna say, how about just being the first to respond.
[00:25:46] Speaker B: There you go.
[00:25:47] Speaker A: And that's how we win so much of our work. And that again becomes attention to detail. If you're organized, you're able to get back faster.
[00:25:53] Speaker B: Yep. So let's go to. Should we move on to. To building said case for. For the promotion?
[00:26:00] Speaker A: Yeah. So you are an employee and you want to build your. That's called business case. When you're. Now I, I want to, I want to stick.
Pin this point up on the wall.
This is not a one time discussion. This is a. You are building a business case in all of the work you do. It's in the totality of your work. There may be, obviously when a job position opens that you're vying for yeah, there's going to be one or two conversations specifically at that time. But this is ongoing communication. So you're building this case, we'll call it for a long time, or you should be.
[00:26:43] Speaker B: Right? And that case, let's insert the word career or you should be. You should be building your career the entire time. And gosh, if all things went well, you'd love to do it in the same place. There would be growth opportunities and you would be challenged all the time. You'd be happy. You sprung out of bed for the most part every morning, not every morning, because humans can't do that. But you know, you'd love it there. And you would be building your career. Right. You would be making choices that would be more about career than a paycheck. The opposite of that. Right. I mean, your salary is what you use to pay your bills. Career is really the direction that you want to go or the trajectory that you want to set. So bearing in mind that you've done a reasonable job along the way. But let's go back to that should be something that's frontish of mind day in and day out. Don't wait for the event to occur. Be building to it the entire time. And, and you might make choices where like we have some great friends who, who are very intentional about. They don't, they don't want that role that has a lot of people to manage. Right. They want to be individual contributors. Is a great word, very intentional, very intelligent. High, high value in the organizations. But there are certain roles that they say no thank you and they are hyper intentional about charting their career path in that direction. Still promotions. I mean, if you look at some of the engineering roles that we work with, we don't, we don't have a ton of them, but our customers do because they're incredible eng that are still individual contributors that are very high up in their organizations, that don't have an army that report to them, but they're still very valued. They're just a little bit different in their path. So making the assumption that you've been doing the right things all along and now you want to put your name in for the promotion. What I would be doing is calling up all of that past experience. You know, you would be, you would be tying it together in a way. The very first thing you have to understand is what is the job description that you're, you're, you're.
That you're competing for. And it's not enough to assume that you know what your boss does, right? I hate the word boss, but we use it here.
It's not enough to assume that you know what they do. So you have to dig in. You almost have to even separate yourself a little bit in the moment and try not to get stuck. You know, you could be guilty of not seeing the forest for the trees. You got to pull back a little bit and attempt to approach a little bit as an outsider. Don't give up your tribal knowledge, knowledge in the inside track, but approaches a bit of an outsider so that you can show up objectively and ask. And ask questions that have a wider lens. Right. They're not super myopic. Based on whatever you've been doing in the past, that you open your lens up and you're going to imagine yourself, envision yourself in your boss's role. You might even pick on some of the things that you know weren't done as well as they could have. Right. You generally know that, you know, Mick's a really good guy, but he's not so great at. So when I talk to the guy that's going to make this hiring choice, I might find a way to frame some of those things that I think could have been done better. Now, I want to make sure they were important to the person that I'm interviewing with. But that's some of the. That's some of the inside track that you would have access to, some of that tribal knowledge that an outsider would never be able to pick up on in the short duration of the interview process. Yeah.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: And that goes back to the idea of preparation, because as. As an employer, when. When I'm hiring or when I'm promoting, that's immediately what I'm thinking about is this person that's sitting across the table from me, have they prepared? Because I want to know that they care enough. And to me, coming in prepared, whether it's the prep I would have done or not, it shows you care. And that matters a lot in the process.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Right. And I think, too, again, not being guilty of sloughing off the preparation because you've been there. I think there's some traps. Right.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: I feel.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: I almost feel like as I, as we talk about this. Right. Build this out, having never done this. Right. Always having been on the other side, you know, all the hiring table, I almost feel like there are some.
There are some traps that you could get stuck in.
[00:30:55] Speaker A: You're saying if you're trying to get promoted and you're. Internally.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. You, you, you might. You might. You might be complacent in Spots. If you didn't. Yeah. I think you could be guilty of. Of attacking or not attacking. Maybe I should say it that way. Right. If you're coming in as the ex, you know, the. The outside candidate, and you're wearing yourself out studying the website. Right. And you're jumping down the MC Arnold rabbit hole to find love in business, to listen to his. Right. I mean, because those are things that people were doing in. In interviewing for the positions that I most recently hired. And it was obvious. I mean, some of them were as obvious to say, well, I remember in the episode where others.
[00:31:35] Speaker A: I had that too.
[00:31:36] Speaker B: I could intentionally.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: And I h.
Exactly. Not because of that, but.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: Right. But. But I could. But. But you know how they were going to show up, Right. If they're going to approach all prep like that. And if you think they do. But. And other ones were as simple as I would. I could tell when they were weaving things in. And I don't think they were being disingenuous or, you know, blowing sunshine. I think they were telling me about a shared value that they picked up from this podcast that suggested that we might be aligned. And I think there's a trap for that internal candidate. It's being lazy on that work or assuming that because you have some history and some tribal knowledge that you don't have to do the same type of work, you have to do the same amount of work. It could look a little different in spots. Your challenge might be removing yourself where the challenge for the external candidate is digging in deep enough to have a meaningful conversation that resonates. You have to do the opposite. You've got to get out and get into a more strategic position and. And discuss your vision for the company going forward and understand that you might tread on your, you know, if your boss has been promoted up or out. Right. If they got fired and they got promoted to customer. So what we call it on here, then you might even step on some toes in a. In a very strategic way to say, I feel like we have an opportunity to better on which you might have been saying in code is Joe sucked at this. And I got so tired of watching us bite in this situation that I'm going to fix it. And you'd like to think that there'd be something that resonated with the guy across the table because he too, hated how Joe executed on that. And probably part of the reason Joe isn't here anymore if he got promoted a customer.
[00:33:16] Speaker A: Yeah. And if you're vying for that position internally, you should use all of the tribal knowledge you have, good and bad, right? Yes, absolutely.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: Or favorable or not. I mean, not favorable. I mean things that weren't done. And, and because if you were listening to our side of the playbook internally, it would be, let's keep everything we loved, let's fix everything we hated. Right. So if you were then playing into the fix everything we hated call hard, you'd be completely aligned with what we were looking for. Are we saying the exact same thing now?
[00:33:45] Speaker A: You have two types of roles. One, for instance, that you could have a sales role where it's very metric based and they can come in and say, listen, these are the numbers I put up. And then you have other roles that it's just not that black and white. If you have, call it a sales roles. But there are other, there are other roles like this. Would you come in with metrics and statistics to show, show what you've done?
[00:34:08] Speaker B: I would. I. So yes. And, and yes, I would. But immediately behind that, I would either, I would either have written as part of my resume. Let's just say I'm, I am presenting an internal resume. Because certainly here if you're trying to promote internal, you go through the same process and you present a resume even though you would think we know what it looks like because we already hired you once. But what wasn't on there was your job here. So that gets updated, but it would be immediately followed. More importantly for me is how you did it. You know, if you raise sales 10%, how did you do it? What specifically did you do to grow sales 10%? And the reason I want to hear that is I want to understand the innovation behind what you're doing. I want to understand where you're taking your cues from. I want to stand if you're doing outside study what your professional and personal growth looks like. Those would be woven in there. Well, I read a book, I took a class, I listened to a podcast called and I tried some of these tools that they suggested and it, and it exploded. The other thing that, that I'm going to be listening for too is bullshit, right? Because I have a pretty good idea if you're interviewing for a sales position, what would be successful and what wouldn't be successful? If you were or if you were borrowing and if you hadn't actually done it, but you were borrowing something, but you didn't actually execute it, then I would be able to tell that. So yes, numbers are great. I love the metrics and even roles that are, that are a little bit more subjective in Nature. I could argue that every single job has a metric attached to it. Right. I'm thinking about all of that.
[00:35:41] Speaker A: Sure. But we know that. But let's talk about one that it's not sales. I'm going to give you one because I'd love to hear your answer.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:35:47] Speaker A: So in our business, we have project managers.
If you're showing up as a. And we don't, it's not commission based, it's not, you know, revenue. So we don't, we don't live and die by the numbers as project managers. How would you show up if you don't have these like black and white revenue goals or what are you showing up with to show your value?
[00:36:06] Speaker B: I would so some metrics I would pull out things like in general, the number of projects that I managed at any one time, the number of customers I was responsible for. I'd be speaking to my capacity, my ability to multitask. If I felt like that was a trait that you valued or was valued in the role called project manager, I'd have five or six metrics that I thought were important. I might talk about how I started in the company with just 5 role, 5 responsibilities. And I grew to 25, meaning I'm capable of 5x the production. Once I get up to stride, I might tie to those. The revenue increases or the revenue that I was responsible for. So the repeat.
[00:36:45] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe customers. The referral business.
[00:36:47] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's, there's metrics to be teased out of all of those positions. But immediately following is how'd you do it? And listen, if you, if it was.
[00:36:56] Speaker A: Only because I just want to just insert one thing before you move on that that was my point, is that you don't have to be in sales. You can be in any position and pull out the value you brought. And it might not be black and white numbers, but you can definitely derive like a list, for lack of a better word, of like thing. Whether it is repeat business or the amount of customers, like increased customers you've had or there are so many things, you have to look at all the variables, but any position you are able to figure those things out and you just have to. Sometimes it might take a little bit of creativity, but think through it and prepare because they're all there inside every, every job role.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: Right. There are many accomplishments every day for sure. Right. And some of those are momentary and some of those are weeks and some of those are months and, and some of those are decades. Right. I mean, we just recently got awarded a patent that was a 20 year journey, but that's one. If you were like, Mick, tell me about your accomplishments, that would be part of my 20 year journey that I would be talking about. So, yeah, all part of it. I think that accomplishments piece, even, even albeit it not 100% metric in spots, is what you'd be looking to pull out and present and then build a story around how you did it, where you started, where you ultimately ended up and what you did between here and there.
[00:38:13] Speaker A: Definitely. And just two last points I'll add, which we touched on this briefly. But it, in addition to building your story, it is also about the questions you ask because I want to know you're. You're genuinely curious and that you understand there are a lot of things you don't know. So the questions you asked are very important to me about the role. They show your curiosity, they show your passion, they show your interest. Those are very defining factors for me. And then secondly, I would love to know if you're coming especially internally and you do understand the way the organization works is coming to the table with suggested innovations or changes that you would make in that role for the betterment of the company. That would be something that I, that would be high value. And how you would even a step further, how you would go about implementing it in an ideal world.
[00:39:03] Speaker B: I love that one. I'll tell you why. Because let's just say you're, you're now vying for the role and you're interviewing with one of us. There's been someone between us the whole time. I might have heard bits and pieces of your ideas, but this is your opportunity, your showcase to tell me all of the things that you've been saying that you thought were amazing that your former dumb boss wouldn't let through the filter to me.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: Right.
[00:39:29] Speaker B: And that would be an opportunity to present that for sure.
[00:39:31] Speaker A: Sure.
Okay, so now when you are. So I think we've done a good job of. We've talked about what we value as the employer, building a strong business case not just in one sitting, but building your case amongst days, months, years, decades. What else would you have to add?
I think let's talk specifically about the conversation where there is a position open. Like when you're at that table, is there anything you would, you would add to, to drop the hammer or make sure you're being one.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: One precursor. One precursor. Don't wait until the spot opens. I think that's something I wish I would have said a little bit earlier in the podcast, but I think if you Think right back to this idea of building your career and building your career trajectory. Don't wait until that role open and hope someone will figure out that you are worthy of it. Go in early and say, I want. I want you to know that I'm interested in growing my career here and any opportunities that present to do more for the organization and take a more invested position in our strategic future. I want to be included in. And I might say that's amazing. There's nothing that looks like that at this exact moment. But I'm going to keep my eyes open for those opportunities. And I'm so grateful that you told me that you'd like to be consistent. Considered I might have missed you. Like some of this whole process is raising your hand early on the lower end of your trajectory and saying don't forget me. I'm willing to bust my ass for the organization and I'm here and I want to be considered. That's a great start. I just want to say that early versus you know, we built this up. Like now you're walking into the room.
[00:41:20] Speaker A: Because we hit on that point several times.
[00:41:23] Speaker B: Well then I'm glad I made it obvious. Right. Just because don't sit back and wait. Get in there with whomever. And. And it certainly wouldn't be smart about chain of command. But certain your direct report should know that. And if you get the opportunity to, you know, say that in the midst of other folks that might be further up the ladder. Do it. Absolutely do it. If you're in social events. God, you know, I really like it here. I, I could see myself being here for a long time. I'd like the ability to do more happen to be at that cocktail party. It's Christmas season. Right. Those are opportunities to. To shoot that stuff out there and get yourself considered or, or get some notoriety that you might struggle to in the day in and day out grind.
[00:42:01] Speaker A: Couldn't agree more. Absolutely. Now, is there anything else you would like to add when you are and when you have gotten to the point where you're in that meeting? I think we just am. I. I think we just nailed it exactly and explained everything we would be looking for. Is there anything else you'd add Just.
[00:42:17] Speaker B: Just that it should be. You know, we've done this in a very verbal way back and forth. Don't forget. Don't forget. And then. And then you would be laying out almost a presentation format of this and, and not to the point where like looks cheesy or disingenuous, but to the point that you said, I got a shot at this title and I want it, and here's how I'm going to show up for it. And it would be highly organized and it would be ready to go. And here's the other reason to do it. A, because it's a great presentation. B, because those are high anxiety moments when you're sitting in front of the person that is going to be making the decision for the role. There's a lot of anxiety. There could be a lot of nerves involved in it. And humans in general, when you get nervous, you start to speed things up. You could forget something. So this, that ultimately acts as a script. And mechanically it just keeps you forgetting an important part that you. A point that you have to make that could differentiate you from the other competitors, be it internal or external. So I would just, you know, it would be like you would go after this, like the most important thing in your life. Like you've prepared for the. Anything that matter to you. Soccer, golf, the way you run now, where you put in the time, you'd put that same exact level of effort into this and it would be, it would just be laced throughout every single thing you did.
[00:43:47] Speaker A: And if we flip that script, the things not to do along those same lines, like internally, it's very easy to show up. You're a friend. I know you. I'm gonna walk in casual. I don't want to.
What's the word? I don't want to come in. I don't want to make it a presentation like I. But that's something I would not do. Don't. Don't show up like that. Show up like it matters. Don't be lazy. Come in and treat it like you are an external candidate. I think that would actually be a really good way to look at it. Like I'm an external candidate with tribal knowledge that you're going to lean into. Like, show up like it matters.
This is hard to do, but come in with confidence. Like, you cannot come in and second guess yourself or question yourself. That really comes through. You have to come in with the confidence that you believe in yourself and like that you, you are ready for this position that you have what your employer values the most.
[00:44:48] Speaker B: I think just, just taking note of the fact that you're interviewing with your boss's boss. Boss, Right. That's an interesting idea. Right. So you've been working with this person you're sitting across the table from for X amount of time, a long period of time. And generally, you know someone that's a couple clicks Away from you. There could be this, oh, what, you know, this g whiz thing about it. Or there could be something that could be intimidating. Like that word is something that you have to be hyper aware of, right? The opposite of confident would be intimidated. Like you can't come in and intimidate that. I think that's where if you go back to that external candidate mentality, no one from the outside is coming in intimidated, right? Like, I don't know. I got an interview with this guy. Apparently he calls the shots, right? It's not arrogant or rude like that, but it's not something that an external candidate is going to get stuck on interviewing with their boss's boss. So I think that's something. You know, you mentioned confident, but I think it's smart to realize, oh my gosh, yeah, I'm interviewing with my boss's boss. That's a big deal around here. Nobody else knows it but me. And that could be attracted for you.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: One little, A little twist of a question.
If you are someone that is interested in a promotion, you like your organization, you want to stay there, you're not looking to go anywhere else. But there are not any opportunities that are open, what do you suggest that person does?
[00:46:17] Speaker B: I would, I. So what I would appreciate or what would be noticeable to me is doing more in your current role than you are now. You know, I mean, roles are, are rather flexible and expandable.
[00:46:33] Speaker A: You know, I, I was. The caveat to that is with a leader who will allow it to be expandable.
[00:46:40] Speaker B: That's true. That's true. And I would say if you run into that type of headwind, then start refreshing, start freshening your resume. Any anyway, because you're probably going to be going somewhere else. I mean, if that's, if you're met with resistance to. I'd like. I understand there aren't, you know, opportunities at this moment, but I think I can do more. I think our department would be better if I'd like to take classes on. Like, there's all types of ways you can expand your worth inside of an organization, even if there isn't an organizational chart move that's available, say it that way.
[00:47:10] Speaker A: And I wanted to end on this because I think for a lot of people, they're going to resonate with this episode. But there aren't, you know, in smaller companies, there aren't always lateral. I mean, there aren't always vertical moves to make. There are only so many positions at one time.
But if you're happy at your organization, you can still Bring a value. And for me, if I have an employee say, listen, I'm doing this now, here are the opportunities I see within the role that can make the company better. Or if someone thinks of a really, identifies a really creative opportunity that we haven't done yet, we haven't explored yet, they bring that to the team table.
Most of the time I'm going to say let's go for it. Like you, you can explore, let's see what you can make of it. So as long as you're working for someone who is, who's willing to pivot and be flexible and typically, I mean, a lot of times that does come, that's the beauty of a smaller business. We're able to do that.
There's always opportunities that you can identify even, even if it's not right in front of your face hanging on the wall as a job posting.
[00:48:15] Speaker B: Right. And listen, and we won't, we won't have an opportunity today to get raises, for example, but that could be a situation where you might be able to ask for or be worthy of additional compensation despite not having an organizational chart change. And that's something that's really cool too.
[00:48:31] Speaker A: And, and the last, I think the last other option here is you talked about cross training. So if you're someone like you feel like you're doing a lot in your role, you're not necessarily seeing anything more that you could, although I think there's always more. But you're, you're not identifying any immediate needs that your specific job role has. But you're like over there in that division. Like I'm seeing they could use some support.
[00:49:00] Speaker B: Right.
[00:49:01] Speaker A: And I'm interested in potentially cross training or adding a little bit more bandwidth or support over there. Like that's something you could offer.
[00:49:09] Speaker B: Yeah. In your department, like division. Department. Right.
[00:49:11] Speaker A: I mean, whatever.
[00:49:12] Speaker B: If you work in the accounting team and you're a, are, why wouldn't you learn to do ap? I'm just picking something that's pretty simple and rather obvious. But sure, those opportunities exist all over the place. I mean, every company that I know of that's trying to grow is going to have to increase their capacity in some way. It's going to be either by bringing in more heads or it's going to be providing opportunities for internal heads to do more and probably compensating for it. So, yeah, it could be a huge opportunity.
[00:49:35] Speaker A: Right. And I, you know, I have, I have certain employees who are looking for other opportunities and like for us, real world application, like we are, we're starting a second business to get up and running in D.C. and I'm a huge bottleneck in the process right now because I simply don't have the bandwidth to do anything that I wanted to do by now with that D.C. business. But there are a couple of people that are looking for additional opportunities in my company and they can come in and they can really run at least pretty far down the field with the DC business and get a lot done. Like that right there. Identify that. See that I am not. I talk about it every single Monday in our project meeting. That I am not getting done what I want to done. Note that and say that's something where I can add value. So it's just like be aware, listen.
[00:50:25] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:50:25] Speaker A: And there's opportunities everywhere.
[00:50:27] Speaker B: Yeah. Look, if we have not given our audience what they need to get promoted in 2025, I don't know what to do.
[00:50:32] Speaker A: I think it's going to be a good year for a lot of people.
[00:50:34] Speaker B: It's going to be a great year. It's. Look, there's a lot of change coming which just seems to be the constant anymore is change, administration, whatever you want to put your hands on. I think there's going to be a lot of opportunities coming up in 2025. So we're here, here to help. Listen away and we'll look forward to hearing about your successes.
[00:50:52] Speaker A: Cheers.
[00:50:53] Speaker B: Cheers.
Welcome to H for the superstars tonight.
[00:51:03] Speaker A: Tonight.
