Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: This will be the only favor we ever ask of you. Please, if you haven't already, subscribe to our YouTube channel. It does wonders for our podcast and we work really, really hard at this. So we appreciate and love. If you could just hit that subscribe button for us. And again, that's all we'll ever ask of you. And after that, we're just going to provide as much free content as we can.
[00:00:25] Speaker B: Yeah, take a minute. It's easy and I promise it won't hurt. And thank you again.
Hello. Hello, and welcome to another episode of Love and Business. I am Mick Arnold and I'm the president of Arnold Packaging and Arnold Automation.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: And if you didn't know by now, I'm Brit Arnold, president of Tagler Construction and Supply. And today we are moving into a part two from last episode.
In part one, we had an entire episode on how to identify candidates to hire this. Part two, it's going to be, once you have identified candidates, what's next in the interview process that will include first interview, second, third, fourth, however many you have, bringing trusted advisors in, questions you asked. We're going to get very granular on this. So if you are somebody in a position that's hiring or you're being hired, this will be very valuable episode for you. So let's get started.
You are in the. We're both in the thick of hiring, actually, I think I have made it to the other side.
You have in some regards, but you're also in the thick of it right now, actively hiring. You also have a lot more experience than I do. So I'm gonna do a lot more listening than talking in this episode, but I can ask some good questions.
[00:01:55] Speaker B: Yeah, look, I just want to start with saying yes, I have. We talk about our teams a lot, and I certainly talk about our executive team a lot. There are. I have a total of five direct reports on that side, and I'm in the process of finding replacements for two of them. So that's a very large percentage. I don't recall a time where I had two direct reports leaving the organization within a couple of months of each other. Even then, Right. Even a year would be a lot. Just. Just the way it ebbs and flows and generally the type of people. But this is one of those moments where it happened and I'm in the thick of it. And so, yes, I have a tremendous amount to share. And if you had asked me this, if we were doing this episode just six months ago, I would have had little to share just because it's very There are the ebbs and flows of this where, you know, a teammate has an opportunity that they can't turn down. Paul Lapel retired. You know, there's a reason why you would be looking for a teammate along the way. So the reasons can, can be varied. I mean, fortunate enough to not have somebody with a health issue, right? That could be a reason or something along those lines. I've had, I've had teammates follow their spouses to great opportunities in other parts of the country. That could be a reason. So I mean, the reasons come from all over the place, but it doesn't change the urgency and everything about it, which can even come with a little duress. So I think these moments, if we're going to share a lot of times we'll talk about, you know, slowing it down, calming it down and sticking with the process. And I think this is one of those moments where we're going to talk about the process and sticking with that process is so important, not that you don't look back. I can promise you that what I'm doing now looks very different than what I've done historically. I've got new tools, whether it's, it's technology tools. I have more players in the room, I have more trusted advisors, a bigger war room. So it doesn't look like it's looked in the past, but once you identify the process, because it can be tough, right? I mean, you're talking about 20% of a really high power team that does a lot of work and is very productive. You get on 20%, that work has to go somewhere and there's a lot, there can be a lot of stress for the remaining team members that are expected to take that up and make sure that the performance of the organization for the customers doesn't lag in that moment.
[00:04:23] Speaker A: I was listening to. There's. I wasn't. It wasn't in a podcast. I think it was just a short. But Stephen Bartlett is the host of Diary of a CEO, which is one of my favorite podcasts. And he's got a bunch of different businesses. And he was saying in the past he spent roughly 30 minutes on recruiting and hiring. And now I can't remember what he said, but he spends about six to eight hours a week, he said, because what he, what has recently dawned on him is the best owners and CEOs spend what they do best is hiring and the people you bring in to your company is ultimately it's the most important thing you could possibly do. So he said he has changed his entire mindset and strategy on how he approaches hiring and the time he spends and the priority that he makes it.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: Yeah, that, that talent assessment piece. If you think about all of the other types of teams that are out there in the world, we talk about sports teams a lot. But if just for example, look at how much effort and energy goes into that exact thing in a sports team. I mean, the draft and the different ways that they find their employees, that's what, let's just call them employees, even though they happen to be a sports team. The amount of energy that goes into identifying the talent, cultivating the talent, and by the way, that's just to get them in the door. Then it really starts once they show up. And the coaching that they get and the, the, the investment in those individuals to become great for the team, whether that's a business or a sports team or military. Right. I mean, all the different things that we, we like to watch and comment on. So I think that's a. What, what a great play. And I mean, that's something I should be doing more of. And, and certainly, and I don't watch that podcast, but I imagine that's a pretty talented individual that has a lot of life experience and has probably a better ability. We talk about understanding the breed and being able to train and, or communicate with the dog. If you have those skills and you turn them to talent assessment, then you'd like to think the outcome would be really positive.
[00:06:27] Speaker A: Yes. So let's get right into the steps of your hiring process. So now we're on the point where you have candidates, you have, you've identified them, you've been in contact with them. What is the next step in that interview process?
[00:06:45] Speaker B: Yeah, just a quickie backup. So our candidate pool today, lots of new tools we didn't have. For example, when I was in the thick of making some of these hires along the way, we didn't have a tool like LinkedIn Recruiter. So that's a new weapon.
So we have candidates from there, we have referral candidates, and then we have candidates that we pick up through advertising, which really is just Tommy and team putting together a great attractive advertisement on LinkedIn that says we're, we're adding our, to our team, we're doing whatever we're doing. And those are the, generally the three pipelines that we have for candidates coming in. So I mean, I think the process for us is, is very similar. We might swap the players out. So let me, let me give you one now we are working on hiring a plant manager and that's because our VP of operations has had an opportunity to go back to the housing industry. And I'm happy and okay to share that. I have a teammate that has an opportunity that's very attractive to go into housing where he came from, which he's very comfortable with. And obviously there's a huge housing shortage in the US So it's even more attractive than it was. And he said, mick, I. I have to go and pursue this. And I said, I completely understand. Let's work together to unwind this. So you get to where you're going in a great place, and we get to where we're going in a great place. So that's where it came from. So since that is the position, I'll tell you the one thing that we do. And again, another tool that's really made this a lot more efficient is teams. So the first step is, you know, as I'm going through, I've got this lineup of resumes, and resumes are really tricky tarot territory. You know, I.
They're assessing them, reading them, trying to get through all the stuff. And some of it is great, legitimate stuff, and some of it is mired in bullshit. And it's. And it's hard to tell because it's just words on paper. So, I mean, I'm generally honing in on certain specific things. Like right now, I'll just give you a few buzzwords. We're looking for someone that has manufacturing experience in low volume and high mix, and preferably discreet. So discrete just means you can touch it, that's all.
So those are some buzzwords that I' looking for. I'd be looking for experience that was generally in and around that space. That would be what I would be looking to pass through. Or if you had that, it would be a pretty quick in, and that's where it would start. And it starts with a teams call. It's 30 minutes on camera. I make that very clear that it's on camera. And I'm looking just to do a couple of things. I want to have conversations about the resume and validate that the technical expertise that attracted me to that call is there. And then I'm looking for chemistry. You know, we're a small business and simply, can we work together? Like, you don't have to be exactly like me. It's better that you're not. We already have a me. We already have an ed. Like, I'm looking for a unique player that can come onto the team and do different things. Right? I mean, if we already. We don't need two tight ends. I mean, we're trying to build a unique team of individuals. And that's what that first interview process looks like, is that part. And it's pretty simple and it has a casual feel to it. It's not a grinder of any sorts, but if one of those two things is off, it would keep you from getting to phase two for sure.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: That's exactly what we do now with a virtual option. We do that just not to waste anybody's time. And it's so much more productive now. You do that solo, correct your person?
[00:10:08] Speaker B: I do.
[00:10:08] Speaker A: So I do it sometimes I'll do it solo. Recently, I've been doing it with my vice president. So we sit on together. The other thing we do is we'll typically line up. If we've got a bunch of candidates, we'll typically try to do as many as we can in one shot. So on Tuesday, Wednesday, we'll have the majority of our interviews instead of spreading them through the week. Not always possible. But what I like about that is having candidates back to back. It's so easy to compare, which is nice because you have one and then. Then you forget a little bit until you have the next one where it's like, well, I just had them back to back and I know for sure which one sticks out. And for us, it's very casual, too. We do a little bit of talking on our end just to explain a little bit about the company expectations, but it's more to listen to them and it's less about resume experience. I think you said it perfectly, just verifying what we thought and what. What they're putting out the information to us. But more than anything, for us, it's just getting to talk with the person and getting a feel for their energy and their vibe and their personality. Because for us and for any company, but definitely for us as being a lean team, we're very close and we all work very closely together. That that person coming in just has to fit as part of the team as a human, regardless of everything else. So that for us, that first teams interview is getting to know, like, the human as a person. Because I don't care how skilled they are, how much experience they have, if I don't think or Jorby and I don't think they're going to fit in with the team, it's done. Like we. We do not continue the conversation. So that's the objective for us in that first interview. Yeah.
[00:11:43] Speaker B: And I'll tell you what I. What I know to be true. Having gone through this wave, I'll just share some things that I've learned which are. Which are interesting and amazing to me. And they're amazing because they're just different than what I'm used to. I would tell you that we have 51 candidates that have materialized out of this process. And also, too, I do want to back just for a Second, I mentioned LinkedIn and there's three aspects of it. There is the public piece that Tommy puts out there, which looks like a social post. And then there is. Then you run an ad on LinkedIn Recruiter. But then there's also that reverse stalking feature where you can slice and dice the candidate pool and you're looking for keywords. I actually start with that. That is the first one. I look, I go after passive. What are called passive candidates. First, they're not open to work. They're not looking. They're not even aware of this amazing opportun. And I will reach out to them and say, your skill set looks very similar to what we're trying to do. Let me tell you a little bit about our company and try to get some type of response. I would say sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. And it's a little challenging in that, like, you just don't know. Did I not write it correctly? There are some people that just don't pay that close of attention to LinkedIn as a social media. They don't have notifications on. So that part can be a little confusing. I wouldn't say frustrating just because, I mean, I have a job that you don't know you're interested in. Why should I? How could I ever be frustrated or pissed about that? Right. I mean, it's ridiculous.
[00:13:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:14] Speaker B: But you see a candidate and it's all aligned with their skills. And, you know, LinkedIn is pushing this person out in front of you because of what your desired skill sets are. And you're like, come on, John, answer. Come on. I had a number of female candidates that were really interesting. Their education background, their experience. And I was like, please, please, please respond so we can start a conversation. And any number of them didn't. But that's another piece that's very, very new where you can attempt to attract passive candidates. And it almost has a. Almost has like a dating app scene to it. Right. You're like, huh? All right, I think I'd like to swipe on you. I hope you'll swipe back. And a lot of times they don't.
[00:13:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And we're doubling back because we already talked about this on last episode. But I will just comment again on that. That's how that was the strategy that we got our last hire, Marie, which, which is really interesting to the human psyche because you're contacting these people and they don't even know that they're interested in another job until someone reaches out to them and they're like, well, I'm really happy where I am, but you are offering something interesting. And then all of a sudden the wheels start spinning.
But that really worked out for us in hiring Marie. But one thing she said to me was she immediately thought it was spam. And I think a lot of people do, they don't even read it, they just think it's bullshit. Because I get emails LinkedIn, I don't read a lot of my LinkedIn messages self admittedly because I just think they're just boilerplate sense and sense. And so I think that's part of the non response.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And the other challenge is for people that don't know the tool, you, you aren't able to make a second contact until they respond.
[00:14:47] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:47] Speaker B: So you're locked out. You get one shot to say what you have to say. And if it falls on deaf ears, then it falls on deaf ears forever. You can't, there's nothing you can do about it. So either way, in any case, that's, that's how you create. I think the interesting part now to me in someone that because that space has progressed so fast in the last few years with Microsoft's acquisition of LinkedIn and they changed what it was, I remember early, everyone's like, well, this is neat. It's cool that there's this social media thing that's business specific. What the hell is it for now we know now. I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a hyper recruiting tool and that's, that's how it's used. So new tools. So you definitely, I mean, if you're, if you're expecting to get into the candidate search part of this, if you have not been to the market for a while, let's say you're somebody like me that's got, you know, five directs and they're generally really solid. They love what they do. They signed on for a great reason. Their compensation is appropriate. Meaning we're above the value line. You don't go to the market that often. So when you do, if you would expect to show up the way you used to show up, you're going to be frustrated with the process, and you're either going to be in it for an extended period of time or you're going to risk a false start. You're going to have somebody, come on, that's going to leave way sooner than you wanted them to leave.
[00:15:58] Speaker A: Okay, so let's continue on. You have your first interview on teams. We both do that. And now you have a more narrow list of candidates.
Now, one thing I do want to touch on because I think there is a. We were talking about it before the cameras turned on, is when you know now you have a certain amount of candidates that you just had an interview with that you no longer interested in. They're not moving on to round two. How do you handle that? It's called, it's literally called on LinkedIn recruiter, a rejection letter.
Not interested. Do you want to reject? And how do you handle that letter? Because as you said off camera, I have a strategy and I'm very intentional about what I say to those candidates. We're not going to elect to move forward with.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Yeah, there's two words that.
And this matters with the answer. If you, if I do speak to somebody, I call it phase one, two, three. If I do speak to somebody in that phase one interview, which is that team's interview, one of the things I'm very intentional and early in the, in the conversation is say, listen, you're a very talented person and, and you have a lot, therefore, you have lots of options. You are attractive to the working world.
So I look at this as an audition. And not just us of you, you of us. Right. This is a very mutual audition. You are exactly 50% of this, this formula. And you love what we're doing as much as we have to love what you're doing. So addition is, is a, is a word that goes in there very quickly. And then the other one is alignment. Right? Is. We're looking for that alignment. So back to your question in that, in that letter. And remember, I mean, it's, it's so imperfect because I'm making that choice based on the resume, which I've already admitted is a very imperfect tool. It sounds like, thank you so much for applying. We. Great. And it comes from me, right? It's. It's me. And I personally respond and I personally handle these process processes for my direct reports. I don't outsource it to a recruiter. And I, therefore, I do think the response is exponentially better. You know, Arnold of, Arnold Tagler of Tegler.
It's, it's exponentially higher. So it's worth the time investment for those candidates. But it's.
And the response has been overwhelming, which is true. And I just. As a sidebar, when you first post, you get a flurry of activity. So you know, that is your opportunity to try to line those up. Up. You know, it's, it's. People have been out. Maybe they're new to the market. Maybe they just haven't found the right thing. Your job hits it blows up right there.
[00:18:30] Speaker A: 80. I would say 85 to 90% of your responses come in that first couple days.
[00:18:34] Speaker B: Yeah, this one I would say. And you're. And you're right. This one has been a little more spread. I'm still getting candidates not at the fever pitch or pace that I was initially. It's been more. There's still. So I'm not sure if these candidates are maybe a little slower, not quite as motivated as some others. But you do get that flurry, which gives you the opportunity to try to book some of those back to back to back and compare those candidates. It does get tougher. And what would you end up. What ends up happening is you may end up slowing the process of A great candidate comes in late, like, oh, shit, I've got two in phase three. I gotta hustle this person up because they really look like a great candidate.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: I have a question for you. And this is. This is for my sake. And I'm sure there are other people wondering, like the way. The way we've done it is I put a post up, we get some responses in and they do trickle in throughout the week. And I've waited about a week and a half maybe. Then when it's really slowed down, I feel like I've got the majority of the candidates. Then I set up the interviews instead of doing the first day, setting up a degree, second, third, because it's just too hard. I wait till I have the bulk of the resumes and applicants in and then I consolidate. It just makes more sense to me. And then the other. That's what I do. I'd like to know your take on that. Second question is do you end up closing the job or do you leave it perpetually open until it's filled?
[00:19:57] Speaker B: Let me tell you, I've executed this way because I'm not sure I've done it in this situation. I've actually responded real time.
I.
There is the risk of losing or missing out on a great candidate. So I do take the moment to peruse their resume at a pretty high speed. One thing I will say is that if you get a local candidate because of the business that we're in, you know, we have 800 purchasing customers and we've been in Baltimore for 91 years. I have the good fortune of being very familiar with a lot of their former employers. We have one candidate in the, in the mix who is heading, who's coming into the facility tomorrow. I five of his prior jobs are customers. So I am intimate. I've been in those plans. I know exactly the department that that person was working in. So that is something that's, that's really helpful. So long answer to in this for this one, I look at the resume and if it's attractive because it has relevant experience and that is that high mix, low volume piece, then I'm back to them quickly with a response that says thank you so much for applying. I've reviewed your resume. Your skills seem to align very closely with the needs of our business unit at this time. I'd love to talk further. Here's the process and, and so I've been pushing those out and I've been entertaining those real time versus letting them gang up. The other thing too is it when, when I'm hiring for two roles. So my time and my bandwidth is as stretched as it's been for quite some time. I don't even have the luxury of carving out multiple hours to be able to back those up. So I'm peppering them into my schedule in 30 minute increments and I'm taking these things in the car. I'm taking them, you know, I'm taking these meetings all over the place, anywhere my phone will hotspot to get enough bandwidth. I could be sitting in the backseat of my own car doing one of those preliminary interviews. So this one I have been keep up with real time. And one quick other thing, I, you know, I've used Excel just to create a candidate tracking sheet. The first thing I did now is I open up the resume, I grab the email address, I plug it into that cell and their name and then at some point when I get four or five, like at night, I'll go home and I'll, I'll address the four candidates that came in that day and I'll be very decisive with you're coming on or thank you so much. But our, your needs don't align, you know, your skills and our needs don't align. So I've been very decisive on this one too.
[00:22:20] Speaker A: Yeah, that's interesting because for me, I think in my head I am limited bandwidth so I don't have Time to be live with every single one that comes in. So I wait to do it all at once. It's just strategy. And I would also say, I wouldn't recommend necessarily that strategy that I've done. We're just, we're so limited. That's what I just, by default I had to do it that way. But there were, I think we identified, I think we had, I want to say like 35 to 40 applicants and I narrowed it down to say 15 that could be a match. And then there were two or three that came back by the time I got to them and said they had already accepted a new job. So realistically you will lose some candidates doing it that way. But again, you're working, everybody's working with constraints in their business and that's just what we had to do with ours.
[00:23:09] Speaker B: Sure, yeah. Listen, you can, there's only, there's only so much time in a day day and it's, it's, it's very imperfect and I think so of the 51 candidates where we are currently, we have two heading to phase three interviews. I mean, but I, I will say we'll probably out of these 51 candidates, one up talking to about six people. That's, that's how we've, I have squeezed.
[00:23:29] Speaker A: This down in on teams.
[00:23:31] Speaker B: There will be six that go to that first, that only six will make it to that first teams duo. And I've already had at least one not go to phase two.
[00:23:42] Speaker A: That's exactly the same here. So out of the 35 we identified like 15 that could be a good match. And we were generous in that. And then we look through those 15 and we get to about, not maybe six, but about four or five. Six.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: Yeah, like 10%.
[00:23:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's exactly, that's. And that's again what you have time for. I mean we, you could make, if you have somebody doing that as a full time job, that's, that's great. But that's not the position we're in.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: No. And here's, and look, here's the challenge too. Good or bad? You know, bad, Bad. Maryland doesn't make things anymore. So I'm hiring for a plant manager job in a state where only 4% of people work in manufacturing. So my candidate pool is very small to start with as it is. And a lot of amazing candidates coming through with distribution experience. So they are operations managers at Amazon, at Macy's, you know, so there's a lot of Amazon footprint. I would say, gosh, of the 50, 10 or 12 had Amazon somewhere in their past. And they're very capable individuals. But I, in this moment, I don't have time to teach them high mix, low volume manufacturing. But I'm sure they're very intelligent and great candidates. They're just, it's exactly what I said. They're just not aligned for, for the needs that we have right now.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:55] Speaker B: And it sucks. I'm sure they're awesome humans too. And I'd like, I mean, I'm sure we'd have a lot to talk about with them as a, you know, distributing things from a customer side and us being a distributor. I'm sure we could talk for hours. It's just not the need I have at this moment.
[00:25:07] Speaker A: And that's, that's a great reason why when you send those letters, rejection letters, you're intentional and you're kind because as you just said, it's a very small market, we all know each other and you just, even in the hiring process, you don't burn any bridges because it's very likely you will see one, at least one of those candidates again in your career, lifetime.
[00:25:33] Speaker B: Oh, 100% of them are buying packaging. Let's be honest. I mean, 100% of them are enrolled where they're around packaging every day. So I would never burn a bridge either way because, you know, if you flip over to the accounting or a CFO role, you know, those individuals are doing accounting functions in all kinds. I mean, I would say very few of them, unfortunately, would we have the ability to sell product to, in the role that they're in. Not this one. I mean, this one is loaded with people that are consuming packaging.
[00:26:03] Speaker A: So you, you identify your candidates that you're going to move forward with on interview one. What does interview two look like?
[00:26:10] Speaker B: That's when I invited my trusted partners.
[00:26:12] Speaker A: Who are, who are those?
[00:26:13] Speaker B: So I have two in the accounting position. So quickie back up. Just, just identified a CFO who will start in two weeks.
And actually they'll probably be starting by the time this drops. Yeah, right, Exactly.
[00:26:25] Speaker A: Same with, same with mine.
[00:26:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So I forget our, our, our lag.
So in those moments, Todd Fuhrman, trusted advisor from Ellen and Tucker.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: Tucker, which for people that are not local, what is Ellen and Tucker?
[00:26:38] Speaker B: Our accounting company. So listen, I am not an accountant and I am not capable or qualified to assess the technical skills of an accountant or cfo. Like I, I'm not capable of getting on there and talking debits and credits. Someone could sneak a curveball by me in that moment from a skills Perspective on this role. I have another very trusted advisor whose name is Jim Paduto and he is my go to or wingman on the sales side and also agreed to step in in Manuf. And while he's not a manufacturing guy, quote unquote, he's a very, he's an amazing assessor of talent and leadership and is. That's as much. Right. I can absolutely. Where I can't do the accounting functions, I can do the manufacturing functions. I speak manufacturer. So I don't need that type of support.
I just love that extra third party perspective of, you know, how they think this individual would fit into the Arnold Packaging company as well as they know us or did they sniff out something just by talking for another period of time? Mine is 30 minutes, his is 30 to 45, something like that. And I will tell you because I know I have Jim or Todd back there as the next piece. There are some candidates that I think are on the bubble that I let go and I know and, and I'm generally sure which ones they're going to shake out and unfortunately I probably end up wasting a little bit of their time. But I still let them take a look in case they find something missed. I was myopic, I'd had an off day. I mean, hell, that's the other thing too and tricky for candidates. I'm not on every day.
[00:28:14] Speaker A: You could just be in a bad or odd mood.
[00:28:17] Speaker B: I'm, yeah, I'm, I'm, I am human as hell. So that's, that's why that second net, if you will, good or bad. Right. Catching, catching great performers that I might have slept on or saying whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm not sure you caught this. And then we'll have a very in depth debrief conversation about our experience with a can candidates to decide if we agree they're going to come into the facility. So I, I invite in a trusted third party because I don't know that I trust myself 100% or exclusively to make that choice. And if we continue to talk about this, you'll know I don't as I continue to bring people into the mix to help support.
[00:28:54] Speaker A: Yes. And I've never done that. I've never brought somebody third party. I'll bring my team in internally, which I'm sure you're going to talk about next. But I think it's a great approach and I also think more than just covering your blind spots as we call it and also being that level of expertise that you may not have, it's simply good to have an objective perspective where the impact, they have zero impact on the hire you make. Because it is human nature if you are part of a company to think about, how is this going to impact me? How is bringing in this person going to impact me? Because we're all thinking about ourselves at least in some capacity where if you have somebody there objectively, it does not matter to them, you know, that you're going to get an honest opinion, which is really valuable.
[00:29:45] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I mean, listen, there's some, some things we talk about too in the process, and our process is pretty long. And I had the candidate that, that ultimately will join our team, as our CFO said, wow, thank you so much. I can't believe the amount of time you spent with me in this process. And I said, my gosh, what else would I do? Like, this is the most important thing I have to do in my foreseeable future. And then I always go on to say, you know, we, we micromanage the hiring process because we have no intention of micromanaging the working process. So we extend it. Right. And. And I think if it's back to that audition and alignment mentality, you audition for a while, you don't drop into a TV role and read two lines, you're like, beautiful, we'll take it. You know, it's not that way. I mean, it takes some time and exposure to understand, you know, if a candidate has warts. And by the way, every candidate has warts. I have warts. You have warts. What you have to understand is.
[00:30:41] Speaker A: Think of another word for that.
[00:30:42] Speaker B: Yeah, I can work on it. But, you know, I think our big warts. Cool, Tommy, you know what a wart is. But some of them are toxic, you know, I mean, not all of them are. I mean, certainly people are individuals and they have amazing nuances and texture. That's what I'm looking for. But if somehow, you know, there is something in there that could have some toxicity to it, it's extending that process and extending that exposure that really helps to make sure that you don't risk a false start.
[00:31:09] Speaker A: So.
Agreed. And so for our second interview, we typically go to in person, in person interview. And, and this is when I do invite my team in because myself and typically my VP and I, we've already done that first interview and I invite our executive team, but we have such a small team. I pretty much, I usually invite in everybody because it's important that everybody now feels. Feels the same. In the end, it will be ultimately my decision. But the feedback of the team is valuable, and I don't think there's ever been a time where we haven't all come together and been able to agree.
But I know you have a similar second interview look and feel. So I'd like to know, do you bring your team in? If you do or I know the answer, but I'd like the audience to know, who do you bring in and how do you break that interview up? Because for us, I interview and then my team, like, we'll, we will break it up so we will not all be in the room together interviewing this person. I interview them solo. They may interview with two other people or they may interview with the rest of the team, but it's broken up. And we do that for a variety of reasons, which I'll get into. But I'm going to pump the ball to you first before I get into why we structure it that way.
[00:32:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, Gorilla down. Gorilla down. He's exhausted.
[00:32:42] Speaker A: Me too.
[00:32:43] Speaker B: Sorry, man. Hang in there. You'll be okay.
This is a very unorthodox, maybe an unusual approach. This is where I have gone completely different than I would have done historically. So the in person interview.
And remember, by Now I've spent 30 minutes at least, and some of my first interviews will go, there's people that I've just enjoyed talking to you like, we connected on a level. Whether it was because they were from the area. There's just a lot of things to talk about. And I actually was able to learn more about them as an individual than I would have otherwise. And it just carries into the rest of it. I mean, by that point, I already know you're going to phase two. Now, Todd or Jim may kick you out of the process, but I already know you're heading there. And without just wasting time, if 30 becomes 45 minutes and it's a value, then I'll take it. So by the time they're on site, they've spent 30 to 45 minutes with me. They spent 30 to 40, 45 with one of my trusted advisors. Here's two things I want to point out. One, if you have a strong social presence, and let's just say it's LinkedIn for business, because it is. Let me tell you how much easier the hiring process is. I mean, multiple candidates said, I've know your company, I've known it, and I know this is your exact experience. I know your company, I've known your company. I've been watching you for a while. So when this opportunity popped up, I couldn't wait to Be part of it. So, I mean, just if you're. If you own a business and you are not leveraging that social aspect and what Tommy and his team put out is so attractive that you don't even know there are candidates on the sidelines that are going, man, if I ever get a chance, I'm. I'm hitting that button. And. And what? You have some experiences. I know in this one. Exactly right.
[00:34:32] Speaker A: I think you said it perfectly. Leveraging social media. If you're not doing that, you're. You're a. And while it does social media has its evils, it definitely has so many upsides. What I will add to what you said is while we have done some marketing from the company, most of it has been building my personal brand through LinkedIn, which just means telling my personal story as I'm building the business, and very raw and honest. It's not this glorified story. It's the ups and downs and the truth. Truth. And I have connected with so many people because of that and by the byproduct of that is them getting to know the company, and that's why they're attracted to the company, is through my storytelling, which I think storytelling is the most valuable skill all of us can have. So I would say if you are an owner or executive of a company and you're looking to grow the company, utilize social media, but utilize it a. To build your personal brand and surround it with your company, and that will be just as valuable, if not more, to attracting business to your company.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And I. And at that point, it almost has a feeling like, oh, an opportunity to go work with Brit. Yes, that's. That's what it feels like. Because, I mean, this is an old one, but, you know, people don't go to work for companies. They go to work for bosses. I hate the word boss, but that's. That's the way the saying works. You know, they go to work for a boss or a direct. Right. Yes. The company. Company's great. It has to have any number of features, but in the moment, you're working for or with Brit or Mick or whomever. So, so that my. Where. Where I was heading was that exposure is already there. So we've talked for, you know, we've talked a couple of times. This, this candidate, hopefully, or done correctly, should start to have a little bit of a feel of the day in the life of. And the other big part, too. And I want to give Tommy a shout out and, And, And Laura, our website does a great job of explaining who we are between that and our YouTube channel. It if the and this is a great test for the candidate. If they are not doing their research, you'll know because there are so many things that that Tommy and Laura put out there about our company. Not just the products that we sell but go on our YouTube channel. You want to understand our culture. There's all, there's five or six videos. Look at our 90th barbecue and all of these different things. So if you have those two components you should really wrapping around a candidate back to that audition and alignment piece which should help reduce the chance of a false start. All of that starts to come together.
[00:37:16] Speaker A: So go ahead one addition to that 100%. Yes. And that if you are applying to new companies that's just a no brainer to know as much as you can about not only the company but the people you're going to be interviewing with. And that was actually the biggest differentiator between the candidate we elected for open project manager position and the second second candidate behind them. It was so obvious which one had done their homework and which hadn't. And not only does that show, I mean that shows that they care but in my eyes I think that's going to translate to attention to detail in their job role. So. And that the candidate we elected also referenced this podcast. They like things that we had said in the podcast.
[00:37:56] Speaker B: Right. Seriously, you want to know us. It's not that hard.
[00:37:58] Speaker A: Yeah right, right.
[00:37:59] Speaker B: And that back to that word preparation. If you won't prepare for the interview, for Christ's sake. Well how are you ever. How are we ever going to work together? The way we value preparation and if you don't know we value it, just watch one of our 45 episodes.
[00:38:10] Speaker A: Well and in my ask this is if, especially if you have a family, this is the one of the biggest decisions you'll ever make. Where you're going to go to work to support you yourself and your family. Like I would hope you're going to do as much homework as possible before you make that move.
[00:38:25] Speaker B: Seems obvious. Not always obvious.
[00:38:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:38:28] Speaker B: So candidates coming in decent role. So the very first thing is this is a five hour process that they're getting ready to embark in. And again we send the agenda ahead of time. They know exactly what they're doing, doing. So the smart ones will prepare and you can go to our about us page and you can actually see everybody that you're going to interview with and their bio. So if you walk into the room cold, you're just not. You're not very smart or you're not engaged or you don't care and you're going to fail out anyway. We would hope to be past that. So I generally allocate about an hour and 15 to an hour and 30 minutes. Remember, they've never seen the facility. Now again, with all of Tommy's handiwork, you can go back on YouTube and see everything about Bill building the facility.
So questions, tell me about questions that you have. What have you been thinking about since our last conversation and your conversation with Jim? Tell me what you need to know or what hasn't been tied together at this point and we continue to talk. Right. That leads then into a plant tour again tying all of it together. Here's what we do, here's the space. We're so fortunate to have such a beautiful facility here at shows so incredibly. Well, I mean if, if you want a wonderful place to come to work daily and from a physical perspective, I, I challenge you to find anything better. And I don't care if you're talking about a law firm, an accounting company, this is a very, very, an awesome facility to be in tour. And, and really what I'm hoping the candidates are starting to get a feel for, a feel for is the culture. You know, they're walking past people that are doing their jobs, whatever their role happens to be. We start in the office, if we're lucky, there's a two minute time lapse of the building being put up, which is very cool to watch this place spring to life as it was being built through automation. A lot of young teammates in that room, a lot of our engineering team, five of our engineers are under 27 years old. So you get a very young feel when you go into that room. You turn the corner, there's robots, you head out to the plant. You know, very large facility with 40 foot ceilings that has a very cavernous feel to it, a lot of great sight lines. So you really, hopefully, you know, the candidates really tying that together, come back up. The next thing I do, which is very new, is I actually invite the direct reports of the candidate into the room and I call it a meet and greet. And I do that for a very specific reason. One, I'm there and, and my job is to steward the meeting and I've prepared the team with questions and the whole goal and this, you have to, you know, I'm always very sensitive and careful about how I say this, but you know, in these moments, if we're going to transition, right, we're losing a very valued Teammate, let's at least take a look at all of the things that we love, but let's identify the things that we could do better or we could have opportunities to improve upon. And I go directly to them and ask them, you know, listen, your former leader certainly wasn't perfect by virtue of being human. Tell me some things that you would like to see different or executed differently in the next leader. And they're very open and tell me, I, I'd like more mentorship. I just pick one that came up in one of our recent interviews.
So they're very involved and, and they get to spend some time with the candidate and ask some questions. And the candidate of them and, and I watched that interaction. I will tell you, it's been incredibly valuable because they have said things or asked questions of the candidate that I didn't know. They're telling me the things that they wish they had. And I'm going, huh, that's interesting. I didn't know that. And I need to do a better job of facilitating that going forward because some of it was things that the candidate, you know, their, their former leader or this candidate would be asked to provide. Some of it's fall squarely on me to provide the resources. So I write those down and take them away. And we've had some productivity meetings, so I steward that and a couple of things I do ask for the teammates input after what did you think? But like you said, and I'll say it in just a little bit different way, it's not a democracy. Right? But it is. I, I prefer to be a very benevolent dictatorship. I care what they think. I want them to, to like a candidate or be on the side of a candidate because if they have ownership, they're going to be invested in their success if that's the person that we choose. Oh, look, John's back. I like John and I'm excited he's here and I really want him to stick around and do all the things we talked about. So that's, that's one part of that day is with him. And it's 30 minutes. It's, it's very brisk and brief. And it's interesting for a lot of those, a lot of our teammates, they've never been in that room before, especially the younger teammates that we have. They've never been in a room where they're quasi interviewing their former leader, their potentially their future leader. It's a really cool dynamic and it's a great learning opportunity for them.
[00:43:19] Speaker A: And you know, you, you hit on this a Little bit. But it's just so important, which I'm learning because you know, Ash from accounting is going to be working with this person in a way different capacity than I am. So they're looking for different things out of this candidate than I am. So just because they're checking all the boxes for me, for Ash, they may not be checking any of her boxes. So we are coming at it from such different angles that that's why it's so important that you do have different people in the room. Because your best candidate, your ideal candidate might not be Ed's ideal candidate and who are they going to be working with more or what group of people is very important. Important.
[00:44:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think there's the other benefit, both of these interviews, this one which is again, I call it a meet and greet because I'm in the room and I do steward it. I definitely there's some long pauses, there's some silence. You've got people that have never done this before and generally the first time you do something, you're not that good at it. And that's okay. I mean that's what experience is for. But there's a panel aspect of it where I get to sit back and watch the candidates answers and I get to fully experience, experience the three dimensional answers. The body language and sitting back in that perch is very different. You know, when you're talking to someone like I'm talking to you, if I'm gauged in the conversation, I might miss some of your body language cues. It's hard to take it all in while also being engaged like we are.
Being able to sit back and experience the candidate that way and watching the interaction is very, very interesting and you learn a lot from their body language and being able to sit back in that panel format.
[00:44:59] Speaker A: After you get through panel, what's next?
[00:45:01] Speaker B: Another panel. So I, I turned the candidate loose with the executive team so the, the candidate is in the room with what could be their future direct teammates and peers. And I step out and I will tell you that is a, that is a difficult, demanding room. Polite, respectful, courteous, but demanding. And just exactly what you said said the, the VP of sales is interacting with, let's just say plant manager.
If they're doing the same thing. Here's everything I love about what we do now and here's things that don't work as well as they could. So tell me about your expectations for on time delivery. What he's saying is I'm not sure we're that good at on time delivery. Right now. And I want to hear from you how you're going to fix it is what he just said to that candidate in so many words. So it's a, it's a. And then, you know, marketing's piece has a little bit different look, look and automations piece has a little bit different look. And you know, sometimes our VPs, admittedly, like Kevin could say, this one's a little bit out of my wheelhouse. And I said, well, Kevin, think about how you interact with this role and what really matters to you and craft your questions around it and make sure that all the things that you love, you're going to keep getting. And the things that might not have been as prioritized as you would have liked in the past, make sure you move them up the priority list right now in this moment and set that expectation. This is your shot. And that's, that's it. And that's it. That's a good solid hour and 15 minutes to an hour and a half. I mean they are in there and they're really trying to figure out, you know, what, what that teammate would look like in the room. Can I work with this person? We talk about our executive meetings on Friday. What, what is this person going to look like in that one hour at executive meeting? How are they going to show up? What value are they going to bring? How are they going to answer our performance? Provocative questions. What can I learn from this person? Because they're all super curious. They're all life learners. They're looking to understand what they can learn if that individual joins the team too. That's what that whole Q and A dynamic is based around.
[00:46:59] Speaker A: So in addition to just getting different people talking to this candidate based on what their role is, you're also getting a mix of different questions. Questions I don't ask the same questions that my VP asks. We are interested in different things. I am not a fan of some of the questions he asks. He knows that. And he's probably not a fan of Samaya. And he's more on the goofy question side. I'm like, I don't give a shit about what your favorite movie was. I don't care. I want to know the Nazi ballsy stuff. And that's what I asked. But that's great. I think it's good because you're going to get people that have different ways of interviewing. So you're going to get all kinds of questions. And if nothing else, even on the goofy ass questions like I really don't give a shit about this Answer. You do see how a person handles things and how they respond to it. Which is, which is a valuable thing to see.
[00:47:55] Speaker B: Would you hear a great one that in the moment I had that grimace that you just said it was, if you could be one of our packaging products, which one would it be? So my first thing was all, hell, did you just say that out loud? But as I sat back and I listened to the candidate's answer, I thought, okay, I'm. I'm. I'm glad I know that answer. That was pretty interesting.
[00:48:13] Speaker A: I'm never going to be a fan of the. I'm putting a silver lining on it. And I do think it. I do think what. I stand by what I said. But just because we're assholes. Oh, I, I just want to know.
[00:48:23] Speaker B: I know the. I know one could call us assholes though, right, Tommy?
[00:48:26] Speaker A: Well, whatever. But. So that's, that's how. That's.
[00:48:30] Speaker B: I don't know that mushy stuff about. What package would you be.
[00:48:33] Speaker A: It's not me.
[00:48:33] Speaker B: Can you add.
[00:48:35] Speaker A: It's just not me. But me either.
[00:48:37] Speaker B: I'm guilty.
[00:48:38] Speaker A: But. But it's great to have a but.
[00:48:40] Speaker B: I'm softer than you. I mean, that's.
[00:48:42] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:48:43] Speaker B: I mean, just in general, you know what I mean? Anywho.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: So, yeah, but it's great to have a group of people asking different things. For sure. Yeah.
[00:48:50] Speaker B: So fast forward. I mean, like, this is pretty. I mean, by now, if you don't know this candidate good or bad, I don't know what the hell else you're supposed to do. I mean, at this point, to do any longer would just be. Be dragging it out. It be. It's like, make up your mind. So for us, you know, and we haven't gotten into. There's conversations along the way about salary expectation benefits, but we've also. That's in our ads. We. We put the salary range in the ads so that nobody is. Is like, oh, wait a minute.
[00:49:15] Speaker A: In different ballparks.
[00:49:16] Speaker B: Oh, that's. That's half of what I expected. Or wow, 2x. That's amazing.
[00:49:21] Speaker A: So you said. By the way, I actually think that's a really big point which I'm learning. I talk about salary in that teams meeting and I want to know what they're making, what they're expecting, and what their benefits packet looks like right now. It's one of the first things we talk about. This is the way I think I used to skirt around that question for whatever reason in the beginning, I didn't want them to think that's what it was all about. But if you are interviewing, this is not a game. Right. This is the livelihood of someone else. Financially. It matters. Period. End of story. Ask the question first because that's going to, that's going to disqualify or qualify a lot of candidates.
[00:50:01] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:02] Speaker A: So like, don't skirt around the question. It's what that person on the other end wants to know. And it's also what you need to know when you're making the selection. Have the conversation in the beginning, people like, this is not a game. Don't skirt around the. There's, there's nothing. Like everything needs to be out in the open.
[00:50:17] Speaker B: No, this is, it has a cat. And I would think, you know, smart cat candidates, if you are auditioning a very quality candidate, they're going to be that, that would be weird to spend that much time together. And you know, we talk about numerators and denominators around here to create value. That is the denominator. Right. It's all this value that you're going to bring divided by what you're going to, what you're going to take from a compensation perspective. Sounds cold, but it's the truth. And if that number. And you have a range. Right. Okay, great. I told you the range was X to Y. You're towards the high end of the range. You better build one hell of a case up here. So as to how this is going.
[00:50:49] Speaker A: To work, I'm outside of the range that I, that I put up, but I found a candidate that has, that is above that rank. What I think is, and I think we are going to get all of that added value in that. So. But with that said still close, like we're not playing in different ballparks. You know, that range is there for a reason. And you might slide to one side or the other a little bit.
[00:51:14] Speaker B: Yeah. But you, and you in that moment. Moment, you'd look at it and you would never jump over dollars to get to pennies is one of, one of my favorite sayings. And it could have that feel. If you missed a great candidate, you'd look at it. You do your math on all of the, you know, all of the great stuff divided by the compensation and that equals the value equation. Right.
[00:51:29] Speaker A: That's, it's, that's, it's relatively small cost and value.
[00:51:33] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:51:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:51:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Investment expense, not fast forwarding. But so we, we, we get this in and, and give our audience the punchline. And I do one thing I've Taken on. Right. You know, Maryland is a very challenging place to be an employer. There's lots of eyes to dot and T's to cross and you can inadvertently blow it. Right. And forget something in there. So I always start with a draft offer letter, which is bulleted compensation equals bullets, only bullets. Nothing that has all these stupid words wrapped around it that I do have to wrap around in the final or the formal offer let letter, but very bulleted. And that allows the candidate and I to go back and forth and really dial in on certain things. And when that is perfect, then I just flip it into and I wrap all those dumbass Maryland words around it and there's a signature line at the bottom, and that is heading towards securing a great candidate.
[00:52:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And I took that from you. So I do the same thing. And my draft letter is one pager. It's just the major bullet points that we can work there. There's no fluff.
[00:52:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I will say these roles that I'm hiring for, I do, I, I, I do put the expectations in there. So the job role, I do. Yeah. The expectations, and they're very bulleted and they're also very metric based. You will, you know, the expectation is you will deliver this metric in this period of time. And that's a great conversation starter too, as you're going through. That could be a conversation of, wow, that seems aggressive. Or what do we do currently? I mean, the CFO process I just went through, that was a great conversation starter. And I learned even more about the candidate by putting all of that out there and got him to, you know, I knew clearly that his expectations were aligned because they're right there. So yes. Bulleted on that part. And then expectations. And if you were, if it was someone that was a salesperson, let's say they're comp. Was very heavily tied to performance. You'd absolutely, positively have that in there too.
[00:53:35] Speaker A: One step we skipped, which I want to touch on real briefly, is how do you get to who your final candidate is? I mean, obviously you're not making this decision in a vacuum.
[00:53:46] Speaker B: Yeah. So I had two wonderful candidates. Real world story. Two wonderful candidates in the, in the CFO job. And it came down to, and, you know, both technical experts, I mean, started to really get into the intangibles. I mean, you really had to start to get into the intangibles because not, you know, not to piss off our accounting friends. Counting the beans, to a point is counting the beans, you know, and that's what makes the process A little easier. Right? Because it's, there's. It's a very technical aspect to it, like hiring engineers. Can you write code? You can or you can. So in this case, it came down to. And I'll simplify it, Picking the right horse for the next leg of the race. So I really dialed in to say two great candidates. I'd be tickled to work with either. They're both great humans and they're technical experts. What does our next piece look like? And by the way, I'm talking five, ten years. I'm not like 12 months from now. What's our immediate thing look like?
It was really just came down to weighing heavily. What is the most pressing and high priority items for Arnold Packaging in this next leg of the race, which I think for. For where we are is, you know, a five, ten year. Our former CFO is ten years. That's a, you know, a good length of tenure. What's that look like? And that's what drove our decision, is that that individual Rob was, Was the exact right horse for this leg of the race.
[00:55:10] Speaker A: So word decision, huh? You said word. You said that was. You use the word were. So you're not the only one making the decision. You're getting your team's feedback. Do you have a. Do you have a meeting after the interview? Like how. How is that?
[00:55:22] Speaker B: Oh, yes, I do. Yeah. I get feedback from everybody. So especially the executive team. The very next morning after that interview process, we get together and I've generally, I've also will give them, I'll call them plant questions. I'll give each of them one. Hey, do me a favor, dig in deeper on this, Dig in deeper on this, and they'll give me those answers back. So I'll dig in on some things. Either I missed, I didn't understand the answer, or I was concerned it wasn't aligned and I wanted to hear if it changed. That would be where I would feed a plant question to one of our executives. So we go through it and then it starts. Starts with. On a scale of 1 to 10, what is your confidence level in hiring this person to be part of our team? And I get a 1 to 10 rating from each of my team members and could even be a why, you know, if I'm shocked by it, good. You know, high or low would be build that out. Why? Well, tell me, tell me what hit you or not. Not very impressed. Obviously what really hit you that crushed that. That rating. So yes, I absolutely take. Take feedback from them. Still a benevolent dictatorship, but like You. I have not.
I haven't. I have not gone against the team's wishes. We've been aligned on the ultimate choice 100% of the time.
[00:56:32] Speaker A: One comment and one question. Comment being. If you are listening to this and you're concerned about there being so many different panels or this person, they're. They're interviewing with you and then another group in another group, you are at risk of duplication of questions.
That's okay because you get to. You get to see if that person is answering the questions the same way because that's an easy way to identify red flag if they're answering the same question or a variation of the same question differently to different groups. Yeah, absolutely. Question for you. If your team feels very strongly about one candidate and you another, what do you do?
[00:57:11] Speaker B: God, I'm happy to tell you that I have not been in that situation and I'm. And I'm not going to give you a wimpy answer. I don't know until I'm there. That's what I could say.
You know, ultimately, the risk lies with me. The delivery lies with me.
And if I felt so strongly that this candidate was. Was the correct candidate, despite 100% of my team members feeling differently, I would still call the shots and I would still take the candidate that I believed was the right choice. Choice. And I. And I would tell you that I might be getting it wrong. But when you own the risk and you own the delivery aspect of it, then that's. I believe that's what you have to do. I think you have to call the shots.
[00:57:58] Speaker A: Why invite your teammates in if you're ultimately going to make the decision?
[00:58:01] Speaker B: Because their input is. Their input is of high value.
It also frames. I will tell you after the meeting that I have. So never have I had a situation where I've met and gotten the feedback of both teams. Tell me what you thought. And we, we, you know, we get all that together in about an hour. I am going back to one candidate or two and I am checking back in on any number of things that they told me, which continues to help formulate my information.
[00:58:27] Speaker A: Right.
[00:58:28] Speaker B: So there's information that I have that they don't have as well.
[00:58:32] Speaker A: And I think that's. That's where I was getting to is a lot of times the feedback from your group is also shaping. Like the feedback of my group is shaping my decision too, which is. So it's not that ironic or coincidental that we typically end up in the same spot, right?
[00:58:48] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. And also to remember that I've spent exponentially more time with a candidate they have too. They drop in, you know, well into it with an hour and a half. I've had a lot more input than they have in the process, but thank goodness we have not had a. I'm sorry to waste all of your time and you really love John. It's Joe. Get over it. Never had anything that was like that at all. Every candidate we've had, they've been tickled to have join us in our room and they're excited to work with what. Thank goodness.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: I will add my closing points and then you can add yours. Just a couple of things to think about. So I always say to the candidates, you know, between here and your start date, I'm available to you any questions you have. I also like with our current project manager coming on, he's got all of our onboarding documents. I've already connected him with our insurance agent so they can. He can get his questions answered. I mean that was actually earlier in the process, but he's got all the documents so by the time he's starting, we've already got all the bullshit out of the way. You're not always going to have that or that person not going to be willing to do that or doesn't want to. But in our case, like by on day one, they're coming in to train and we've, we've gotten all that. So I would recommend that if it's, if it's logical or feasible on your end. Also, one thing to be very clear on, I have had where we've offered someone a position and I think they've used that offer to go back and negotiate with the company they're with. So making it very clear, we're going to offer you this. And like this is our final what's. I don't know. I know you've done this too. Like make it very clear this is not for you to go back and negotiate. I need to know that this is where you want to be. If I offer you this, what you're asking for, I'm meeting what you're happy with, that you are coming here? We are committed to you, you're committed to us. Making that very, very clear. Because it is very common now for people to use your offer as leverage in their existing company. So to the best of your ability, you don't have full control of that, but to shoot that down from the very beginning.
[01:00:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And gosh, you'd like to hope you would have laid that groundwork, but it can happen and it's happened to us in the past. I'm going to tell you the most important thing that I've learned through this process. Tommy had my camera right. This is a big one. I'm shocked. Of the 51 applicants that we have, how many of them have been in their current role less than two years? So I'm telling you, like we talked about, if you are not committing yourself to understanding how to recruit, hire and train great people, you're going to be in trouble. Because I don't think the workforce is going to look like it has historically with 30 year people and 20 year people. The most tenured person that I interviewed and saw had 10 years in their current spot. 10 years. The vast majority of them had two or under. I had one most recently that started their job in April of this year. They've been in the role for seven months and are looking to move. So if this is, this is here to stay and I think, you know, it's a very interesting time that we're in. The pandemic certainly shifted the weight to, to the employee. Right. The seller of talent. You have these tools that we've talked about at length like LinkedIn that opens up a lot of gateways that were much more difficult historically. So I think there's going to be a lot more movement in the workforce. So if you are not honing your skills on recruiting, hiring and training. And retaining too. And retaining for sure. But I think there's going to be certain situations that regardless of what you do, retention is going to be impossible. Possible. And you're going to have to be in a position and you're going to have to have a great process to find your next teammates.
[01:02:24] Speaker A: Okay, I said those were my comments, but these are really my last comments.
Retention. So I think the best way to retain people is to make sure people have growth opportunities, period. And then two, I will say if I flip to the candidate side, understand that for me I am looking at someone that's been tenured for a while. That's really attractive. My project manager coming in has been with the company for 20 years. Years. But also. But I do like having a little variation experience. So had a couple other jobs but has been loyal and committed to one company that for me I love. So there is real value in showing you are loyal and commitment to somebody. And actually a couple, a couple of my last hires have been like that. So keep that in mind if your job hopping. While I do agree with you, the market's changing and you've got to be a great employer, to deserve to have someone's tenure for a while while as an employer that is so valuable.
I'm not looking for somebody that's going to be jumping. I'm looking to build a team that wants to be here forever.
[01:03:25] Speaker B: Me too.
[01:03:25] Speaker A: That's. That's what I want. And I, I intend to give those employees all the opportunities that they could get anywhere else. So why would they want to leave?
[01:03:34] Speaker B: Well, DS on what you said, the reason that you're the guy coming on board after 20 years of the other company is growth opportunity. Nowhere to go. Yeah, agree. So that's why. Back to our all time comments of raising a rising tide. Raises all boats, creates space, creates positions, creates opportunities of with more, more people moving and escalating and elevating. That's what it's all about.
[01:03:54] Speaker A: And I would be remiss if I didn't say if you are looking to work for great companies that have great companies that have growth opportunities, you know where to find us.
[01:04:07] Speaker B: Yeah. If you can't find us, then we probably don't want you.
Hang in there, brother. You're going to make it. Cheers. That's how I feel right now. Damn you, Moxie.
Another episode of Love and Business shot and end of a. I hope a great two parter. I mean I know a lot of people are interviewing and there's still a lot of movement in the markets as it relates to personnel. One of the reasons I know is because I feel like most, most of the time when I open my LinkedIn homepage, there's somebody announcing a new role. So it maybe just happens to be a moment in time and there's people that I know and. But I, I really do hope that there's some great takeaways from these episodes. Happen to catch both of us right in the thick of it and it is cyclical, you know, I mean we, we might fill these roles and not be back to this space in our evolution for quite some time. So I love the fact that we got to immortalize this. Hopefully we'll be smart enough to come back and remember what we did last time. Which is the beauty of this podcast is the things that we get to immortalize and we actually do go back.
[01:05:09] Speaker A: And listen to the best companies have the best people and therefore the best companies have also figured out the best hiring practice. So keep that in mind. And that is why this is going to be a very valuable two parter.
[01:05:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Enjoy Joy. Please, please, please use it. And, and as always, we hope our, our teachings keep you out of harm's way. Because that's why we share.
See you soon.
Welcome to a Touch for the superstars tonight.
[01:05:42] Speaker A: Tonight.
