Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: So I have a fun idea.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:00:13] Speaker A: Just so everybody knows, Mick has no idea what's going on. So what I decided to do today.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: Is that a paper drum roll?
[00:00:24] Speaker A: Yes. Is. I wrote 17 tips for entrepreneurs along the way.
[00:00:32] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: And I made a list of what I thought was really important. That's not necessarily common knowledge or goes against the grain a bit. Not intentionally, but as I was building a business, I was just logging things along the way. But this is all in retrospect, I think I wrote this probably a few years ago, though, in retrospect of what really was valuable as I was starting my company. And again, it's a lot of things that you'll hear, a lot of advice, and this is the opposite of a lot of what you hear, which is why I posted it and it got so much feedback. I think it had thousands of likes on LinkedIn and hundreds of thousands of views. So it was just like something that was obviously very intriguing to people.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:01:21] Speaker A: So what I want to do today is go. There's 17. I think we should go through all 17. One, because I could think it could be helpful to people.
Two, I would like to evaluate if I have since changed my mind and talk about that. And then, of course, I wouldn't want your opinion on. Yeah, I totally agree. And this is why. Or bad advice or different than what I've experienced and what I would suggest.
[00:01:45] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: So I think that would be fun.
[00:01:46] Speaker B: Yeah, no, yeah, of course.
There's any number of talking head type things that I experience in my travels, whether they be pure book based or they have that, I don't know, cost accountant feel or MBA feel, totally, like, ripped out of a book. My first thought is, did you actually do what you say, what you're trying to suggest that you did? Because it's very or diametrically even opposed to what I'm used to. And maybe there's just different ways, but, man, my bullshit meter is going off on some of this. Like, this is what you're supposed to do. So, yeah, I can't wait to get into these.
[00:02:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And herein lies a big problem. I am a huge proponent of reading books and learning from the best and listening to podcasts. But if you sit there and you listen and you listen and you listen, you're a entrepreneur, and you never actually do anything and execute, you're going to listen to all these things. And half of it is really bad advice. I mean, once you get into it, you're like, holy shit. That doesn't, in theory, sounds great, but once you get into it doesn't work.
So these are the things I've learned in the trenches.
[00:02:49] Speaker B: Right. And as Dyson would say, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. That's right. And this is punch in the face material.
[00:02:54] Speaker A: Right, exactly. And I think there's going to be a couple I read where I might say I've changed my mind on that since I think. But we'll see. So let's start with number one. Number one. No, you can't keep a nine to five and start a new business on the side. Jump all in or don't do it at all. Shoot.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Look, I think you and I have talked about the different positions of people. And look, if you could make your choices, would you identify that calling maybe a little younger in life or when you had more flexibility, you didn't have those young kids or whatever those responsibilities are, regardless of what they are, or there are people that are younger who may be taking care of a parent that's fallen in poor health or so on. But yes, I would say that the lighter and more agile that you can be, the greater your chance of success. Now, some would say, yeah, but there's also a lot of wisdom that you haven't necessarily experienced at that particular point, too. So that is some of the trade. But I would just suggest that if you're sacrificing fewer people's welfare as you're trying to get into business or you're going to take a leap, the better.
But there's a lot of motivation that goes behind that, too. And you don't roll over, you don't sleep that extra minute or two or three, and you jump out of bed with true purpose. I mean, not any very heightened awareness of purpose.
If you could skip the side hustle component and jump right into it, I would suggest that it might be rare only because, man, sometimes it takes time to find that thing. You were in a great position as related to having that continuum through construction and said, oh, wow, what a great opportunity. Look at what goes on in the MBE world with construction.
[00:04:55] Speaker A: But I was also forced, true to that.
[00:04:58] Speaker B: But you also identified, right? I mean, you seized that opportunity with both hands and jumped in about as hard as one can. And certainly, yeah, I mean, there's some benefits when you're only turning the cable off for you and not your spouse and your children. Totally. But yeah, I think if you could elect to do it that way, you would. But by no means, I would liken it to. What I'll say probably a few times during this segment with a question that you've identified.
It is a way, but not necessarily the way.
[00:05:29] Speaker A: Yes. And the way I do social media, which I have learned, and I do it because I have learned that it's probably more polarizing in a way which makes more people read it and have an opinion. So I don't ever add any gray space. What I really wanted to say is, most of the time there are exceptions, but I like to just speak in the black or the white.
Now, this is probably the point where my perspective has changed the most, I would say about all of them.
I still agree with this, and I know why I said what I said.
I could have never started my business at the pace and grown at the volume we did had I not gone all in and all in was 20 hours a day. I also, because I was forced into entrepreneurship, but I had identified a window in time. There was very fear based, a lot of motivation, and again, without that, with that security, maybe I wouldn't have actually gotten it off the ground at all. And I stand by that. So I do think I needed to be in that position the way it was for it to turn out as it has now. I just heard a stat. I think I said this on the last podcast. I think, or maybe it was in a conversation that more entrepreneurs are successful, that actually started as a side business. There was a stat that went along with it. I don't know. It seemed like a credible source. So I'm not sure if there's any truth to that or not. I certainly think if you can do it on the side and you've got the security and foundation and Runway of a secure job, it's not a bad route to go. But I do still believe strongly that if you're so passionate about something and you can go all in, it's going to come with risk, not going to be. Either way you look at it, it does take everything to do it.
[00:07:29] Speaker B: And I think the other piece that you just said that's interesting is you mentioned 20 hours days. So that just made me think of it would be easier or you might have a better chance of success if you had disposable time. And by that I mean you didn't have other burdens, whether that was kids or some of the things we've talked about. That makes it a little tougher or a full time job that you're responsible to. So that disposable time, and I don't mean disposable that way, but you know what I mean, right.
And disposable energy.
There is that youth component as it relates to energy. That is certainly a value because you can go 20 days. Right? You do have that type of energy that maybe someone that's closer to my age or that's a little bit older, you can go harder. And that is certainly of benefit. When sometimes, we'll talk about this a lot today and all the time. There are certain times when you just can't out think it anymore and you're going to have to outrun it or outwork it. And I would suggest that if you're on a good path, that that would be on the side of youth, that the ability to outwork it or outthink it would be towards the benefit of someone that was younger. Not necessarily. Again, none of these are ironclad by any stretch, but if you can go harder when you're younger, then that would suggest to me that your chance of success would be better.
[00:08:47] Speaker A: Yeah. I also think it's a personality of a person, and I think no matter what, no matter age, gender, whatever, if you're that person, that's like family obligation. I don't care what it is.
You could say, easy for you to say because you didn't have a family and you were young. But I still believe this. I feel like whether I was 50, 60, it's innately in me. I think there are some people that are just going to get after it and do it and that's that. And there are other people that aren't inherently.
All right, moving on to the next one.
Number two, stop spending time on your website, your business cards, your apparel. They do not matter. Now, this is, again, when you're starting.
[00:09:27] Speaker B: A business, there's lots of ways, I think the packaging business and industrial and manufacturing type. There's still, I think a. I would like to think a personal component. We have a group coming in here tonight that likes to get together and talk about supply chain. I think there's some industry specifics to.
[00:09:47] Speaker A: But when you're getting.
[00:09:50] Speaker B: I mean, what are you getting started in? I mean, you could talk, know. Amazon started with actual books and then moved it, obviously, to purely digital. I would agree with you. I know certainly in packaging, and we turned 90 years old this year. But it was interesting. When I was coming up through the business, we didn't do a lot in the community. There was not a lot of networking activity. We weren't part of any number of groups. It wasn't until probably five or six years ago where we got involved with things like the manufacturers, extension partnership. We started to reach out and get involved in organizations and people that were in our market that were going to be of a lot of benefit value making those relationships. And you meet two people and they introduce you to two and so on and so forth. So as related to that, that was huge. I mean, we almost had a reignition of our company. I mean, we were just moving along pretty stagnant, solid numbers and a very solid company, but nothing that was letting the world on fire as it related to growth. When we got more involved in that piece and went to the market and met people and got introduced to other people that said, oh, packaging, we have a lot of opportunities. Anyone shipping anything as a target, that's a pretty big base, I would agree. And certainly it's too. I mean, the business card thing you hit on is always fascinating to me.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: That's almost obsolete at this point. Yeah, that's almost like a non conversation for me. I hate them so much.
[00:11:18] Speaker B: There's lots of people that get bogged down. I'll say this a thousand more times. My father would always say, when in doubt, go make a sales call. I think that's right up there with everything that we're talking about.
[00:11:27] Speaker A: That's my point. My whole point is there are so many, they don't launch yet because they're like, my website's not ready, or it doesn't matter.
None of it matters, especially in this day and age with social media, where you can get so much out just with social media. I don't care what your website looks like, I don't care what your business to get started. And this is exactly what I did, and it was great, and I didn't know I was doing it at the time, but all I was focused on was like one customer, one project, get the business. Without the business, you don't have anything else. Stop worrying about the other stuff. You can get a website, and you can get business cards and apparel and logos, but when you have business and you've created a name for yourself, but before that, stop worrying about it. It's trivial. If you have a good product or a good service and you know how to work with people, relationships, you can get the business you need. The rest can come in due time, but you don't need to deal with it up front and certainly don't let it delay your start.
[00:12:26] Speaker B: Sure. Yeah. I mean, so many people will prepare to prepare to prepare, and that just becomes procrastination at some point. And the number of individuals we see them in sales, for example, that just suffer from failure to launch. I mean, it's like, for God's sakes, are you going to ask for an order anytime soon? Are you going to? Right?
We laugh all the time about these career networkers, that you're in the same place with them all the time and they're selling copiers. Pick something.
[00:12:51] Speaker A: Why? I don't know what they do, right, or you do.
[00:12:54] Speaker B: And you think, I've seen you seven events in a row. Are you ever going to ask for my copier business? Yeah, because everybody has a copier, right? I'm not picking on copier networking people, but just in general. It's like, I have a copier. At what point how many do we have to have? 90 drinks? 1000 drinks before you're like, hey, man, you got a copier? I'm like, I do have a copier. Funny you should ask.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:13:13] Speaker B: Of course I have a copier. Are you going to ask me if you can have my copier business at any point? It's almost as if, well, if I hang out long enough, maybe Mick will figure out that he needs to buy copiers from me. That whole mantra just makes me crazy. And I don't know, somehow being in sales has turned into this, I don't know, unknowable enterprise. It's like you're in sales. Let's not even call it that anymore. It's so gross. Let's call it business development bullshit sales. I mean, nothing happens until something gets sold, so let's just call it sales. And that's a very noble profession. And again, all that stuff out there, I'm pointing at our 100,000 square foot facility till one of us sells something or someone on our team sells something. Nothing matters back there.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Yeah, my advice would be for this, just get a domain and get an email address. And then you have your domain for your website and just start there. That's good enough.
[00:14:08] Speaker B: Not hotmail.
[00:14:09] Speaker A: Yeah, create a real domain to make yourself credible.
[00:14:12] Speaker B: $14 a year.
[00:14:13] Speaker A: That's it. And that's all you need to get started.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: Network solution.
[00:14:16] Speaker A: And then if you really need a website, get a dance like I started, with a landing page. I'm like, this is great.
Okay, number three, spend minimal time on your business plan. Yes, you will be required to have one. No, your actual business will look nothing like the business plan you first write.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: Yeah, if you work here, you know that I am very data based, but not as it relates to anything you just said. I mean, I am definitely a feel player, if that's even a thing in business. I mean, if you look at our automation division, that is seven years old, I got sick and tired of telling customers no because the demand kept punching me in the face with customers going, my labor rates are too high, I'm spending too much time on overtime, which was just code for my labor is unreliable, it's unavailable. The quantity and quantity suck. And I just kept saying no to very valuable customers who wanted us to come in and change their productivity quotient. And I didn't have a weapon. And after a while, I just said, enough of this. And I didn't write some business plan about what we could do. The market was changing at that particular moment, collaborative robots were hitting. I got introduced to some guys that came out of the Hopkins lab, shout out to ready robotics and Ben Gibbs and Kel Garren, who are the reason that we have an automation business. I mean, they taught me enough to fake it until we had a chance to become it. But at no point did I sit down with a spreadsheet and clack out some business plan on what could be. We started making hires and really selling the vision. I mean, I went out and got some great players. I mean, Kevin McHenry and our team is truly an inventory, and he's a rensalier, educated biomechanical engineer. And I had to sell Kevin the vision because I didn't have anything else to sell. Kevin started working in the lobby of our old building. That was where automation started, but it wasn't with spreadsheets and business plans and purely by feel, and that's how we got an automation. So there's a real live example of no, I don't think that's necessary. And I will say, and I know you're going to yes on this. If I had ever done that, I would have sold us so short. Along the way, we're going to do this many dollars buy, or our business plan is, we crushed all of that. Even anything I even thought about along the way, we would have overshot that by so much that it would have just been silly. Just clacking to clack.
[00:16:44] Speaker A: Yeah. And I will say us being in a little bit of a different position, because, Arnold, automation wasn't standalone. You didn't necessarily face the same as, if you are starting a startup, you are going to need a business plan. At least you did seven years ago when I was in the game to bring in front of a bank to get lending, like those cuts of bonding, all that stuff. I had to have a business plan, of which I did put a lot of time into because I thought it was really important and maybe it was to them, I don't know. But the business plan itself is ridiculous. Like not a single thing turned out. I will say it made me think through a lot of things. But again, I don't ever, ever want to say I have this five year plan. And yes, we overshot. If I had to figure out what my five year revenue projection was going to be, and if you look at the trajectory of what I put on that business plan, I still have it today. It's hysterical to the numbers we actually did. I mean, we were off by millions of dollars and tens of millions. And I just think it's been so ingrained. Although I do think the perspective is shifting on business plans. I think there are more people that are talking about it saying, hey, spend your time elsewhere. If you got to get a business plan down, get it down. But don't. I mean, I just worked hours and I stressed about it. Don't do that. Just get something if you have to. But as far as just stressing about it and spending too much time, it's just not worth it. It's just not helpful.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: Yeah, agree.
So much has changed too. Kickstarter there's so many other ways too. We've talked along the way about the agility that's available now, how quickly you can spin it. Not. It's not like the days of old when all of the best resources were reserved for the biggest companies. Right, where only IBM could have this or only insert big company name here. So many of those walls are broken down. All of those tools are available to everyday business people. One person companies, 101 person companies. Those walls are pretty well down. And the ability to start a business in your garage basement is more legit than ever. I'm sure we'll spend a lot of time talking about AI along the way. And just some of these things, these tools that are available from a productivity standpoint where you used to not be able to enter because you couldn't afford a gazillion people in the back room to do whatever needed to be done, those days are over. I mean, you can create so much productivity with so much less input than before. I just think a lot of these things you mentioned, maybe it's not as big of a thing anymore. I don't know. I guess depends on who you're talking to. I mean, some of these industries are so crusty banking, and if you look at certain things, I mean, the bankers are requesting, I mean, look, there's so many crusty I think practices.
[00:19:36] Speaker A: Can you use another word, please?
[00:19:38] Speaker B: No, I think crusty is appropriate here. But banking and certain things that I don't know. And it's interesting too, the people that require it have no idea what it actually takes. They sit on the sideline and watch businesses run and critique. I mean, until you've made payroll, seriously, give me a break.
[00:19:57] Speaker A: I would love to know if anybody's listening to this, that it is going through this process, what the emphasis is on business plans right now as you're going through it. And I would love to know, like a business plan, because I just pulled up all kinds of templates. Have they changed from ten years ago? Because I just haven't had to look at one for so long. So I'm interested to know what that evolution looks like because there could be somebody listening. Like, that's totally not a thing anymore. Not as important. So be cool to know that a.
[00:20:28] Speaker B: Business plan is a quasi financial statement. They don't change very often.
[00:20:32] Speaker A: No, true. Okay, number four, spend normal business hours connecting with as many people as possible. Nine to five, whatever.
Use early mornings and late nights to get the administrative work done while people are not available. And I'll start with this. And this is something that I definitely did that helps so much. So call it nine to five, eight to four, whatever that looked like. I spent every second I could meeting with anybody that would meet with me, who would even entertain me. And even before I really had products to sell or really before I knew how I was going to purchase a lot of products, I would just get in front of people and communicate and try to nurture those relationships. And I knew there was so much on. I was still in the phase of trying to get things set up and the admins and all that. So I knew there was a lot of that work to be done, but I knew I could get up as early as I needed to or stay up as late as I needed to, where in those off hours people are not available. People are the most important thing you have in your business. So I said I knew that. I knew that was a priority. And so during those hours people were available. I was going to make sure I connected with them.
[00:21:52] Speaker B: Yeah, brilliant.
This would go for a lot of professions too. I mean, certainly entrepreneurs. And if you're starting a business, if you think this is a 40 hours gig, you are going to fail. I mean, there's no way. If you are two things I would say if you are working the minimum, and this is regardless of your position, and especially too, if you're in sales because to me, sales, you work for the biggest company in the world yourself. It doesn't matter. You are running the business unit like you and I do, or you are running a business unit under a larger umbrella. I mean, when I think about our sales organization and our salespeople, I expect that they're running a business unit or a portfolio or a territory. However, you happen to have it structured underneath of the Arnold packaging umbrella, and you're making the same exact choices and decisions that we would make at any level inside the organization. And I would say to that if you're working the minimum amount of hours or you don't go into your first day of work, fortunately for us, is Monday. But that's depending on what it is. If you don't go into your first day of work prepared or hyper prepared, then you are a fool. I mean, the number of people that walk in on Monday, and it's like, I wonder what today's got in store that's not going to work. And I think in that same vein of what you're talking about is you have to move all of that outside of the typical business day.
Listen, construction, crazy early starts and manufacturing, similar to or the industrial business world where we participate, you can actually extend it even more. You have certain types of people that are early risers. You have certain people that do their best thinking at night. You could actually extend that contact game from eight to five, right? Or something like that. Or it could be seven to five, there's 10 hours a day, and then push that outside. So, absolutely, if you think you can work the minimal number of hours or not be hyper prepared all the time, especially starting a business. But I just say in general, too, if you want to go and compete in the upper echelon of anything, sports, picket man, if you're not killing yourself on the preparation, because at those levels, the successes are separated by fractions of fractions of percentages. And it's only about preparation at that point. So if you would be wasting any of those critical hours of contact, like you're talking about doing admin or clerical type work, then that's simply foolish, which.
[00:24:15] Speaker A: Is very easy to get caught up in as you're starting a business. I mean, it's so easy to sit behind the computer for hours and hours and hours and just get caught up in it, which I think I probably found myself doing in the beginning and then just said, no, I've got to get outside of this and make the contact. So that would definitely be my advice for somebody starting.
[00:24:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Once you rewrite that list for the 6th time, it's time to actually go do something. Right. Yeah.
[00:24:40] Speaker A: Number six, say yes to as many opportunities as possible. Even if they fall outside of your capabilities, you will find a way to figure it out. You haven't earned the right to cherry pick.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Especially when you're new, I would say. Yeah.
There was something I read recently interesting that said, what do you want the company to be? Or where is it going? And the simple answer was, it's going to be whatever the customers want it to be. And the number of pivots that we've made along the way, trying to stay inside of our lane. I mean, after a while, when you get your assets pretty well set.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: That's what I was going to say. So devil's advocate would be, you hear so many people say, well, just stay in your lane. Just stay in your lane.
That's just my comment.
[00:25:26] Speaker B: Yeah, no, again. And that's not one of those blinders, head down comments or anything of the sort. It just means that if there is something to be sensitive to, it's that you're going to be able to seize particular opportunities a little bit faster than others if your assets are deployed in that direction. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying that you wouldn't look at things, or you wouldn't be looking left and right for opportunities. One of the things that's interesting, or we find ourselves as a packaging company that got into automation. There's a bit of a disruption feel. And I don't say that people tell me that. I mean, I'm always fascinated by being a disruptor. I don't think people that are disrupting actually ever intended to disrupt. They were just doing what they were doing, doing what they love, seizing an opportunity, leveraging demand that presented to them. And in the process, someone said, I didn't see that coming. And that's the definition of disrupt. So that was an interesting piece where drop into the automation space and we're now going toe to toe with a traditional integrator is what's in here. And we lost that order to who it almost has that feel to it, where they didn't even see us coming. So I completely agree. And in general, for small businesses, I think that old adage of the answer is yes. Now, what's the question? Or my father would say, I would come in and we have this conversation. He'd go, hey, until we have an order, we don't have a problem. So go get an order. And then I'd go bring it back out.
More times than not I'd say, I got an order and you go, son of a bitch, I didn't see that coming. Now, shit, we got to figure this out, right? And those are two interesting ones. And you're going to get a lot of George Arnold isms along the way because that's how I learned business.
But those were two great ones. We talked about sales calls, but yeah, until you get an order, we don't have a problem. Now get the hell out of my office. Sure enough, and I go bouncing away and close, I need to be like, damn you, kid.
[00:27:25] Speaker A: Just nothing's going to fall in your lap when you're starting and you've got other people that are doing, doing what you're doing and that have done it longer and better. So you got to take what you can get and you got to be fighting for every opportunity. And you can't say no because that customer that's saying yes, this isn't exactly what I'm looking for, but I have a customer. What's that going to lead to? So it's taking advantage of every opportunity. It's not going to be perfect. It's not going to be exactly what you want, but you can get there. And hey, by the way, you might figure out, wow, we can do that. And we're pretty good at it. And as it relates to businesses that are a little bit more established as we are now, two different points to that. I was listening the other day to, I forget what CEO he was, but he was saying a lot of people will automatically fire customers that are challenging or fall outside of their typical scope of work that they deal with. And it's like, it's hard. Let's get rid of that. We don't need it. He said, what we do, actually, he's like, what we do is we say, okay, that customer broke us because we're not good enough. How do we get better? And then we can be the best for that customer and what they need. So it actually pushes them to evolve. And I was thinking in my head, we have these conversations all the time internally saying, yeah, there are some customers that maybe we should fire and maybe there is a time and place for that. But I looked them and I said, yeah, but we've got to check ourselves. Are we getting lazy because they're breaking us and we're not set up to deal with how they are right now? Could we get better and for them and then for our business? So that's just something I think about a lot.
[00:29:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And those would be barriers to entry. I mean, we have this thing when a customer is grinding us and we work with some very large blue chip organizations and sometimes we're amazed at how big they are and successful. They can be a little bit of a mess, too. They can be disorganized at times. When our teammates are frustrated, I will remind them that if it were easy, it would pay like shit. Right? I mean, all the easy stuff everybody's doing, that's all out there for as much as you want. But those are barriers to entry. So you're going to have to dig in, figure it out. You're going to have to come up with something or have a conversation, whatever it is. But those barriers, and they're just opportunities in disguise. And if you figure it out, there's that many other people that won't be there competing with you. And that's a great space to be.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:29:52] Speaker B: You're not going to be racing to zero. That's one benefit, right? You're not going to be racing to zero.
[00:29:56] Speaker A: My last comment on this will be also once you have a business or no matter what phase you're in.
For me, it's like I get so motivated and inspired and just jazzed up at these periphery opportunities that weren't right in front of us. I never really saw them coming, but I'm like, oh, that's a good opportunity and that's fun. And that just keeps the monotony from getting, because if I'm doing the same thing every day on the same type of jobs, that monotony, and that's at the foundation of our business, of course, and it keeps us solid, but then it's all the other jobs around it, and it's probably because we're small and agile and can look at different things, and I have that mindset. So from a leadership perspective, it trickles all the way down. But I think my team would agree. There's so many cool things we're doing that are kind of on the outskirts, I would say, of our core business that are fun and keep us going and, hey, start another division or become really profitable or whatever that looks like. And that's really important to us right now.
I think we're going to probably have to go through these a little faster here. We just have so much to say.
[00:31:06] Speaker B: Well, what was to say? Why do we have to do this in one segment?
[00:31:08] Speaker A: We don't.
[00:31:08] Speaker B: Let's not.
[00:31:10] Speaker A: Number seven.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: What's that?
[00:31:14] Speaker A: Seven.
[00:31:16] Speaker B: It's better be a good one.
[00:31:19] Speaker A: Okay, so I'm not sure how much. This is pretty obvious.
[00:31:23] Speaker B: You're saying this is not snapper.
[00:31:24] Speaker A: Well, it's probably the most important thing, but it's a little obvious. Your business will only be as good as the partnerships you keep. Put all your time and energy into developing them. You don't need a lot of them. You just need the strongest ones. I think a great thing to talk about would be developing the war room here. And that would be really helpful, because that's something you've taught me, actually, that I have definitely implemented, and it's been a lifesaver.
[00:31:50] Speaker B: Yeah. So that's something that I actually learned the hard way. My father, if he were alive, would be 102. He was born in 1921. So my point of that is depression era. So everything was too expensive. He generally was, he would say Panorius, which is actually the same thing as cheap.
[00:32:09] Speaker A: It's not entrepreneur.
[00:32:10] Speaker B: No, Panorius is a synonym for cheap.
[00:32:16] Speaker A: It can be entrepreneurious, cheap, entrepreneur.
[00:32:21] Speaker B: It's not where I was going, but in any case. And I found that for him, when it came to paying for professional services, that annoyed him. Like whether it was the accountant or the attorney or so on and so forth, he would in spots, but it generally annoyed him to pay for that. I know when he passed in 1995, I inherited his war room, and it wasn't even called a war room then. It was the accountant and the attorney, and maybe that was just it.
And they were solid. They really were. That's not a knock on the quality of those individuals. They were great. And we were about a four and a half million dollar business at that point. And that was very appropriate. And then as I went on, and that was 95, fast forward to 99, the business was starting to change and the demands were starting to change. And I was changing and realized that it was time for me to get my own people. And part of that, too, was they were used to little Mickey, and they were not capable of evolving the way I was and wanting to make that run. So it was necessary, I would say, unfortunately, because they were very nice people, but they were just different than what I needed to go where I wanted to go. So it started with a company, too. So, yes, war room would generally refer to outside. And for us, that would be accountant, attorney, banker, insurance person, commercial real estate. We ultimately put in there because that became a very important part of our growth strategy, was identifying the right buildings, whether that be in size, scope, cost, location. So part of our strategic weapon became the commercial real estate piece. So there's five. And then I was also doing the same thing internally. That war room, those are the people you have, your internal people.
You're trusted. I have a team of five, but there's things outside where you need to be able to turn to someone outside the organization, and you need to have the best of the best in each one of those disciplines, because you just never know what that war is going to look like. I mean, you call it a war room for a reason, and sometimes it's a good thing. Right? It's an opportunity and that you're digging into. But if you're moving at those speeds, it could have a war type pace or a war type feel to it. So, yeah, those relationships across the board, we can talk about other types, but I would say that professional support component, man, when you need someone to start bouncing ideals off of, if nothing else, because, a, they're experts in their space, that's huge, but b, their perspectives are valuable just because they're not yours. And that's super critical. So if we're talking about those types of relationships, then I couldn't be a bigger fan and to this very day, have one of the most valuable and reliable war rooms I could ever think of or hope for.
[00:35:14] Speaker A: Sure. Yeah, I mean, there's valuable relationships all over the place, but for this context, we'll talk about war room. And I think it's also important that you get people that are really aligned, because I would cringe when I heard, like, legal and CPA. I'm like, but I got people that are my friends that are awesome, and we have the same mindset and we think similarly, but they've got an expertise that I don't have. So that's important. This is a group of tight friends and allies. It's not this super buttoned up, professional, let's go in here, and it's uncomfortable type of thing. I think the other value in that is when your war room people get really tight, my CPA and my bonding agent talk all the time, the free flowing, even if I'm not part of the conversation. So they know things and it just grows from there. And then your team's friends, and it's just like this really great vibe, and everybody wants to support everybody and help.
[00:36:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I don't think I told you recently, our CPA invited one of our business consultants to be on the board of directors of another company, and they met. That's exactly in our war room. And it was, man, that guy's really good. I'm going to take him over here and have him and interact with another client. He's that good. I was like, that's when you know you got it right. When someone is trusted, as this person takes that person into another company's organization, that's what right looks like.
[00:36:35] Speaker A: Yes. And as a business founder, I will speak to, because a lot of us as founders, we aren't equipped and we're not experts in a lot of this stuff. We just had a great idea or an idea, and then everything else, like, wow, what are we doing? So these people become instrumentally more important. And I always tell you this all the time, I know it's a great war room when I'm high stressed, particularly about the financials or the accounting. And whenever I get out of a meeting, which I have at least monthly with my CPA, I'm like, oh, God, this was so much easier. What was I stressing for? He just dumbed it down, talked to me like I was a fifth grader, because he knows that if he breaks it down to us in a certain way, I'm going to understand it, and so is our accounting team. And so that is the way I would describe a great war room. They make you feel at ease. They break it down, they make it simple. They take all the stress off, and who knows what they're doing in the background or what they're thinking, right?
[00:37:33] Speaker B: But to you, they might be playing the duck.
[00:37:35] Speaker A: This is how they lead on. And I'm like, that's a wonderful war room.
[00:37:38] Speaker B: Well, yeah, but here's the thing, though, and that you caught on sooner than I think most, is that you have to be willing to admit that you know what you don't know. Right.
I think a lot of entrepreneurs somehow think the world expects them to have it all figured out. And that's not the case. It's not the case at all. It's actually to the contrary. There's so many people that if you ask for help, they can't wait to help, they're ecstatic to help. They will offer anything from terms and conditions. We've talked about that along the way. And I mentioned last time that found a company that I just love, the guy that's operating it happens to be in the third party logistics space. How better for me to support than giving terms on boxes and packaging materials here? Take 90 days to pay. What do I care, right? And use that cash to do other things with. Just get me paid at some point. But if you'll stop for a second and maybe put your ego aside, and I think that's a big piece of it. And just realize that it's not only okay to admit what you don't know, but it's logical, it's reasonable that you don't know all of this. Who can. Who can possibly know all of it? So once you do that, who wants to. Yeah. You can only be good at so many things. Right. Someone argue across training shoes. Good at everything. I would argue it's an expert at nothing. Right. It's that type of mentality. So that's a big part that you picked up on very quickly, was to say, yeah, I don't know any of this, but I got the best of the best in each one of these pieces. And if you get it right, it also has that cathartic feeling where you leave and you're like, okay, now I'm light. And I know that that person has my blind spot. That's another big piece of this, is that you're so leaned in that if that person has your blind spot, then you can relax for a second and know you're not going to get caught from behind. That's huge.
[00:39:30] Speaker A: Yes. Two last comments. I think this might be helpful because I'm sure the question is when? I'm just getting started. A, how can I afford these professional services? B, where do I find these people when I don't really know anybody? And two great questions.
I didn't have a war room immediately. It was probably a couple of years, maybe three years in. So it takes a little time.
[00:39:49] Speaker B: But that does go back to the network because you would like to have as many of those referred or as referrals as possible. And that goes back to that network.
[00:39:56] Speaker A: Well, that's what I was tapping into number two. So let me focus on that a little bit more. And you're going to have to pick and choose what you pay for on the professional services side at first until you're able to get help with all of it. That's one, two, finding them.
So you're probably going to evolve out of a lot of the partnerships you first create. They don't have to be perfect at first. Make sure they're legitimate and somebody that can help you, but you're probably going to switch partners. And really, so that's just the reality. I luckily didn't. I got it right from the start. And here's how I found. I'll just talk about my bonding agents, who's now I also do insurance with, and then my CPA, Craig. So it was all about going out and putting myself out there so as a minority owned business, the very first minority event I went to, I sat next to Reggie, and he happened to be a bonding agent. And he tells me, I told him we would be the biggest female owned supply company in the US the first time I met him.
[00:40:53] Speaker B: You probably did, which.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: Well, he told me I did. So apparently I did. And he was like, all right, great, I'll go along.
I'm like, business. I haven't done any yet.
[00:41:03] Speaker B: What's a bond?
[00:41:04] Speaker A: Yeah, what's a bond? I didn't even know what shirt he meant at that time. So I met him by just going to that minority event. But the thing was, he was so locked in with other minority businesses. That's what he did. Obviously, he had other businesses that he worked with, but that was really his niche. Huge. And then CPA went to Clark Construction, who, if you're in the construction space, you know them, they're one of the biggest gcs. They had an academy call it. I don't know what they actually call something along the lines of an academy for new business owners, which I applied for and got accepted. We had lectures from different people to try to teach us, and one of them was, let me teach you about progress, billing, aias, how you do construction, accounting, basically. And it was Craig in there. So he was already focused on startup businesses. He knew what it looked like. He knew. Obviously, they asked him to lecture, so they knew he could speak our language. Immediately went up to him right away, like, I need to work with you. So it was just putting myself in situations that were an easier way to. I mean, I didn't know I was going to meet these people, but they're there. Obviously, these kind of people are there, so you got to put yourself out there.
[00:42:17] Speaker B: Well, they were all doing the same thing. You were right. I mean, they were all there doing the same things, trying to meet people, networking.
[00:42:22] Speaker A: I'm sure they weren't doing it for the hell of it.
[00:42:24] Speaker B: No. Hell no. Absolutely.
We know them well, now you know they.
[00:42:30] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. Well, I think, actually at that time, craig was with a big firm, and now he's got his own practice and doing amazing. So there you go.
Okay, let's see. I know on this one, we are on a time crunch because of the event we have. How much time do we have here, production team?
[00:42:47] Speaker B: We're good.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: 20 minutes. Okay, cool. Great. All right, let's see here. Thank you.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: Production team.
[00:42:54] Speaker A: Production team number eight, you are going to get a lot of criticism. Most of it will be accurate. Buck up. Embrace it. And use it to get better. And I remember thinking in the beginning, this is a really dumb example, but I still remember it. So it was social media, and we were talking about our lumber. Just something stupid. I don't know. Here's what we have to offer. And I used this stock standard lumber picture, and it was bad looking lumber, right? And this guy thought he was a dick at the time. He said to me, if haters are.
[00:43:38] Speaker B: Coming, I didn't know what was no.
[00:43:40] Speaker A: He just wrote something like, who would ever buy lumber from you looking at that photo? And my first response was, I think it was like the first negative thing. It was right in the beginning. First negative comment I ever gotten since I had started the business was immediately. And I was thinking to myself, like, what an ass. And then I thought to myself, wait, he's totally right.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: That's shitty lumber.
[00:44:04] Speaker A: I'm selling lumber, and I use this stock standard, ugly piece of lumber. And then as time went on, and now my sister can attest to this, who works for the business.
Probably even six months in, I completely change just my way of being. Completely. And the way I accepted criticism, I was always one to. I'm competitive, probably get a little defensive, and that's human nature, of course.
But now, truly, if I get some feedback, I think about it first, and I'm like, oh, yeah, that's true.
Or I'm like, I take it for what it's worth, but I'm definitely better because I realized in the beginning, I truly did.
It took a hit to my ego, but a lot of it was true. And I listened, and that helped me get better.
[00:44:52] Speaker B: And social media is interesting in that regard. And when you read the question, I thought, where's this going? And certainly social media is when you put yourself out there, regardless of what the platform is. I MEAN, you are opening yourself up to everything, right? The positive stuff, the negative stuff. And it's interesting to me. And social media people will say things that they would never really say to your face. It's almost like they have this cloak or this veil, even though they have a picture of themselves, but at the same time, that same type pieces, you could also look at every single no that you get in business that way. The order that you've lost, whatever it is, I MEAN, all of those no's are a particular criticism as well, right? They made a different choice.
They selected your competitor, whatever that would be. I would say that growing up in an earlier business world, for me, where there wasn't social media, right.
I would have loved to have had more overt criticism because it would allowed me to course correct or high speed, pivot faster, be like, no, dummy, don't do that, do this. So I would say my experience of that is the collective knows failures, losses over the years, whether that was big pieces of business or whatever, something that I wanted or thought was good for the organization and made a very concerted effort and put myself out there, not too dissimilar from what you do on social media and lost. I mean, I would say all of those collective losses would be that same type of criticism where they said no to me and obviously said yes to somebody else or a different offering or relationships along the way. Right? That's a similar thing, too, where that type of criticism, if you ball up and don't listen, there's learning opportunities in every single one of those, and you're right on it. Right? It'd be first, you asshole, and then it's. I'm not sure I would buy that, Woody. Or if you're honest in retrospect about that loss sports world, you'd look back and go, yeah, you know what? I didn't prepare hard enough. My offering wasn't as good as theirs. I didn't hit enough balls right in the world of golf or you and your green wall in the backyard. I should have missed that trap. If I had taken seven more repetitions and I would have kept that ball in front of me, they wouldn't have gone the other way and scored. I think you can take all that criticism and do great things with it, but you're going to get battered. If you get into business, and this is all about starting your own businesses, you're going to get battered. I mean, you're going to hear no's for days, and you're going to go up against far more resourced companies with deeper, wider benches than yours. And you're just going to have to keep battling until you figure it out and you figure out how to get that first win. But, man, you better take every single bruise and scar away and do something with it, because they're a value.
[00:47:51] Speaker A: Yes.
And I think as you evolve a bit, you can put things into perspective into its place. Like, that's good criticism. I'm going to embrace that. That's just silly. It takes some time. Like the guy who, or the many people that I have that photo on the forklift and a dress and boots, and I don't have some safety.
Something about OShA and I'm like, do you really think I was driving around on that forklift in a dress.
It's stationary for a photo. Come on, man. Like that kind of stuff. Silly.
[00:48:26] Speaker B: Some people have a little too much free time as well.
[00:48:28] Speaker A: Yeah, I'd say so.
[00:48:29] Speaker B: That's definitely a problem with this planet, right?
[00:48:32] Speaker A: But, yeah, it's putting its place, running with it, and making the best of it, and a lot of it will.
[00:48:37] Speaker B: Be true up, and we're still laughing about it. So it's a value to us. Right? There's humor in it for you and me. That's pretty funny.
[00:48:42] Speaker A: I have a question for you. Now that we're talking about this. This. So you will find two kinds of entrepreneurs, some that are very motivated by criticism. I hate the word haters, but whatever, haters. Anything negative like that is a driver that pushes them. They think about it at night. They're like, let me beat this guy right here. Then there's other people who are like, no, that's not me. I am way more motivated by the positive I have.
What is the word? Barriers up against that pessimism or whatever.
What motivates you the most?
[00:49:27] Speaker B: So it's a great question that we ask a lot of people in our organization. It's part of exactly what I'm going to say. Right. The difference between love to win or hate to lose. Man, they're both hyper, hyper important to me, but I think I hate to lose more than I love to win. And I think that comes from. I don't mean this in an arrogant way when I say it, just the expectation that I was always going to win. And that just comes from the idea that that's how I prepared. That's really a preparation statement for me. Not an arrogant statement. Or it's just that, yeah, I mean, I put 1000% into it. I prepared that way. Of course, I expected to win, or I would have done something different in the preparation. So when I lose, and in those moments when I lose, I think, damn, I didn't see that coming.
And then I do get into the self reflection or introspective piece, and it's like, all right, well, what didn't go there? And unfortunately, it would be awesome if exit interviews were mandatory, right? If you got to ask the people that were involved in the choice or whatever didn't go right. Whatever relationship that is, it would be awesome if exit interviews were mandatory, but they're not. Sometimes you get, or most of the time, you get a flat no, didn't get the order. You follow up to realize that you didn't get the order. They don't even call you in and say, I have great news. They don't pull out a podium and put somebody on the middle in the gold medal thing. That's not the way business works. So you don't even get to do exit interviews in a lot of situations, and you're left there to figure it out on your own. And, man, I would say, yeah, all of it drives me. I mean, the wind certainly drives me as well. And, man, do I show up at times with a chip on my shoulder, especially if I feel like we're the little person, the little guy or the new entry. Do I show up with a chip? Damn right I show up with a chip, looking to make some noise and unexpectedly kick some ass. Because it was like, who's that again?
[00:51:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that was my next question.
Is there a chip on your shoulder? So again, some people are like, yeah, absolutely. Every day. Some are like, no, not really. I don't carry that around.
[00:51:31] Speaker B: Yeah, all day, every day. No.
At times, though, I have a self deprecating side that certainly acts as a driver.
But I think it's important.
The second you show up as an ass or anything that would look like arrogant or anything along those lines, that's too much. I think. I try to keep that as internal as possible, that type of drive. I think the winning and that whole piece is a great for everyone and everyone to share. But I think that internal fire or that chip piece, I think burns here. It doesn't burn anywhere external than anybody else would see or ever be like, look at that ass and the chip he has on his shoulder. That would be horrible. I would hate to ever show up that way. How about you?
[00:52:21] Speaker A: I feel like I'm going to cheat here because I feel very driven by both.
If you don't think I hate to lose, and if there are people that are doubting or saying whatever. I remember in the beginning of business, we had a competitor, no longer a competitor, and just being honest. And they would call up our vendors or who we were trying to work with and ask about us, and they would. Did you hear this about her personal stuff, calling our vendors or who they knew we were because it was their vendor as well. And if you don't think that looks bad on them, people are reading through the lines.
I loved it so much and it drove me so. I do like that. But also, I have so much fire.
When we're inspiring and doing good, that fires me up, too, especially when I'm seeing the young girls and women that is also so. I feel like it's almost 50 50 gunned ahead. I'm not sure which one I would pick. I mean, I'd pick something because I just love life and I want to be alive, but I don't know which one I would pick.
[00:53:32] Speaker B: Yeah. And it can be both. I think it's awesome to be able to draw from either at any particular moment. Imagine that you are absent one or the other, and that's what you needed in a moment to get your ass moving and fire ahead.
[00:53:48] Speaker A: I've heard a lot of ceos that have been in the business for a while will say, yeah, I've grown out of that. I've grown out of the finding motivation out of the hatred or whatever that looks like. I'm like, no, that's my personality.
It just is. It lights me up and it's just for me, it's who I am. It's always been. And I still have the other side of me. Want to do good? Love that part. But I'm not going out of it.
[00:54:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm with you. They're going to bury me in one of my own boxes. Competing? Yeah.
[00:54:18] Speaker A: Shish, you heard the man.
All right, number nine, stop worrying about your office space. All you need are four walls and a desk. If you need something more cushy than that, you probably don't want it bad enough. I'd even take out the desk at this point. Don't even really need a desk.
[00:54:36] Speaker B: No, not today's world. Yeah, we turned 90 years old. In general, I mean this in the nicest way. Our facilities were usually dumped, and we've got fortunate to find this location and do it our way. But in general, it was always about the operating part of the business. I mean, I don't have people coming in and sitting on a couch. I'm not even here enough to do any of that.
I couldn't agree more. That is even completely lost on me, the idea anybody would be locked in on anything as foolish as that. And listen, our business is different. I mean, we are going to our customers. We have a fleet of vehicles. We don't do will calls. So in general, that's pretty wasted.
So, yeah, maybe if you are in a particular industry where there's credibility associated with that, or your clients, or maybe your prospective clients come in and they feel like they're an accomplished place, maybe there's some firm benefit, but that's certainly not the industries that we're competing in. And I don't imagine it's that way for you.
[00:55:39] Speaker A: I think this one is a little bit.
So, obviously this is way pre pandemic now. This is before remote work was a thing. So this is almost a little antiquated because we all know now so many people are working from home and don't have office space. But I will say personally, when I was getting started, I felt a lot of pressure to be in some sort of office space. I mean, I worked from home in my condo for a while until I moved to my first commercial space.
[00:56:07] Speaker B: Was that that imposter thing though? Was there that component? No, we've had. We'll get into the imposter.
[00:56:13] Speaker A: I was like, until I have especially two for what we were doing, which was selling product at that time, we were drop shipping everything so we didn't have inventory. And eventually, with what we do, if we were going to keep inventory, you need an office space. But regardless of that, to strip all that out, until I moved into our first shitty office space, which I love so much, truly, because it was like I say this all the time, it's my shitty office space. That to me, was the first time I felt like we were legitimate. This is a real business. We were doing the same thing we were doing the day before my condo. Nothing had changed, but it just felt real to me. And I think it was a great move. I'm not saying it wasn't, but I do think the emphasis on that. And again, I'm not sure this applies as much anymore, but you could probably relate it to several other things that people focus on. Just like, it's just not that important. Again, go back to solidifying your first customers, great business, and everything will organically grow from there.
[00:57:08] Speaker B: And I think it does. And there's a bit of an individual component to that, too. Different people work different ways where there are certain days where I need to get out and get to the office or something along those lines to feel more productive.
And you need to have that space would be better served if it had a sanctuary type feel. We talk about sanctuary a lot. And if your office becomes a sanctuary of sorts, where you can really go and knuckle down and be productive, and that's how you're built. Some people say, my God, I'm a stone cold killer on the couch with my tv dinner tray. Great. Awesome. The faster you can figure that out and create that space, or don't create it. If you're better off sitting with cross legged on the hardwood floor and you can crush it, go do that. But figure it out as fast as you can and get there quick.
[00:57:57] Speaker A: Agreed. Number ten, don't do business. With family is bad advice. I built my business by doing it with the people I trust the most, my family.
[00:58:07] Speaker B: Well, I work for a family business.
[00:58:10] Speaker A: You no longer have any family in.
[00:58:12] Speaker B: That's true. That's true. Again, back to the comment. My father's 50 years older than me, so he was the one who went through a lot of aunts and uncles and cousins. And I think he had a brother. So his kids, I think at one point all worked in the business. My mother had four siblings. I can think of three, four, five of them that worked in the business. One still does part time in our service group. So I didn't even really have a huge chance to do that.
There was just that age separation such that I didn't have a lot of people that were around or available in those moments to hire in. But we've talked about this, too, the episode about side hustle or having a partner. And I love all of the components that would be trust based. It's my sister I can trust her. Theft can become a huge problem in entrepreneurial businesses, and where the founder or one of the two. Right. Is more of that salesperson, they're generally out. They're literally not watching the shop or the beans, and they wake up and their partners embezzled everything or something along those lines or was doing something nefarious with funds, and you find out too late. But, man, I would say if you could get friends, family, and have all the best parts of it. Yeah, of course.
Who wouldn't want hardworking, trustworthy? Those would be some of the values that you'd absolutely sign up for as you're starting a new business.
[00:59:40] Speaker A: Yes. And I would say I hired my older sister and my mom and agreed. I mean, having trusted people, I would take somebody that's so trusted like that. Again, every family situation is different, but for mine, who were as close as close can be, I would take that over them. Not necessarily having the strongest skill set. You may have somebody else out there that is better at this thing, but my sister is good at this thing. Maybe she doesn't have much experience, but she is so trusted, and that will let me sleep at night a little bit more. And that all can be trained. The trust.
That is what it is.
[01:00:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that's back to watching your blind spot. We talk about that a lot. I mean, as a business owner, entrepreneur, you're so entrepreneurial. Entrepreneur, I say, nor entrepreneur. They could have picked an easier word, for sure. You are so leaned in all of the time. So if you could have a trusted advisor watching your blind spot. That would be the best.
[01:00:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think every family dynamic is different. And the thing that people worry about is what happens if this goes wrong? Does this break the. So what? And I. That does not even cross my mind. And here is what I will tell you. If you are true business professional, whether you hire friends or you hire family, it doesn't ever get to that point, because you're professional and you know how to handle it. If you're a real leader, you just handle it right away, even if it doesn't work out.
[01:01:21] Speaker B: Sure.
[01:01:22] Speaker A: It's like, okay, we're still sisters, cousins at the end of the day.
So if you're confident in your leadership skills and you're actually great, it should never suffer that tie in a relationship.
[01:01:34] Speaker B: Yeah, there's the egos. The ego component is always difficult. Well, look, I think we made a heck of a dent in this today, and I'm excited that we have six, seven more of these to get through, because these are great. I love that you love talking about these, and I would hope there's some great ideas that someone listens. And, gosh, even a tidbit sometimes is the difference that you need to get over that next hump or next hurdle or feel like you're in a rut. The idea of making sales calls and some of the things we talk about, there's some great ones here to continue to delve into.
[01:02:04] Speaker A: Yeah, Wolf, finish up these, and then I think it'll probably be time soon to come up with a new list as we've evolved and see how these have changed. But, yeah, we've got about. So what do we get to? We got to ten. We've got seven more.
[01:02:18] Speaker B: Right on.
[01:02:19] Speaker A: So that's next episode. There we go.
