Episode Transcript
[00:00:11] Speaker A: All right, well, I am fresh back off of Pack Expo in Las Vegas, which is always a great trip.
It definitely seems that the world is ready to get back out. There's a lot of great engagement and people are back out and in attendance and there's a really noticeable buzz about what's going on. And I just wanted to thank all of the people that I experienced out there that we know, but even some people that we don't know who said, love what you're doing with love and business.
[00:00:43] Speaker B: That's the most exciting.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: Thoroughly.
[00:00:45] Speaker B: I love all of our friends and family, but the ones that you didn't know that came up to you and said something about it, I love. That's really cool.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: I know. And it was interesting too, because I was with Paulie and Ed and I think Paul, of all the people, if you're not around it, they'd be like, my God, is this ever going to stop? And I said, I don't know. I don't know if it's ever going to stop. But clearly some people are listening and I'm grateful and obviously texted and called you along the way saying, I just met somebody else that I don't believe I've made their acquaintance yet, but they're watching. So thank you.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thank you. And we do this to offer advice as we've talked about. It's very therapeutic for us, makes our relationship better. And also it keeps me really accountable when we talk about some of these stuff, which I love. I will say though, we do it for ourselves and that will never change. It's important for us, but also we want people to engage and part of that is with viewership and subscriptions, it's hard to keep this thing going and run businesses without that, without that engagement participation. So please, if you do enjoy, like we would really appreciate the on YouTube just click subscribe. Takes 2 seconds. All that's going to do is update you to when new episodes drop. Likes comments it really is important to keep this thing going and we are truly grateful. So I think we've never said that. So I think it was just want to lead off with that?
[00:02:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's great. And thank you again.
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you.
[00:02:18] Speaker A: Most importantly, and what a cool day so far, we normally tell the viewers this is a midday shot. We've shot some mornings and some afternoons. This is a midday shot. And the reason it's that way because we just had some really special guests. Why don't you tell the story?
[00:02:34] Speaker B: Yes. So we had World Trade Center Institute contact. I say we. They did not contact me. They contacted you because they had female entrepreneurs in from Chad, from Africa, and they're basically touring some really great companies in the US and just learning. And of course you said, well, my wife is also an entrepreneur. I'd like her to be a part of the event. And it turned out we met four amazing women from Africa. They all have their own businesses in packaging, agricultural, electrical, electrical, solar service business. And I think that covered their three industries. Not only that, they all run their businesses, and they all do so much in the community. One founded a school. They were helping children, one was helping. A big theme was them helping women in revenue generating circumstance how to be able to do that. And I said, that was so inspiring, because while they were so focused on their work, they were also so focused on so much outside of that, which they seemed like they adopted that mentality way more than we do as Americans. It was inspiring. And this bracelet, one of the ladies made and gave it to me and, oh, I should have brought the keychain. Another one made a chad keychain, which was awesome.
And it's just neat.
I love meeting women that obviously are entrepreneurs, but then to meet women from countries that are so far away, the cultures are so different, the environments are so different, their challenges are so different. I look at myself, and if I complain or talk about a disadvantage, I'm like, gosh, she talked to these women, and it puts so much into perspective for me. And what I thought was so interesting, among everything we told them, you showed them the plant, the automation, distribution, manufacturing.
You talked about your business. I talked about my business, and I talked about being a female entrepreneur and some of the challenges I've faced. However, they all came back to how fascinated they were with us being a couple in business together. I mean, that was the common thread among everything else we talked about, which I thought was extremely fascinating. And what they said was, they didn't say in Africa, but it seems like it was. From what I could pick up on cultural, and this is my assumption, I could be totally wrong, but from their explanation was inside their organizations, it's really looked down upon or not permissible to have intimate relations inside at least the organizations they're a part of. And they found it very inspiring. And I think one of the ways we had translators, but one of the ways the lady phrased it, or it was translated to us, was that it's very inspiring and it makes us think differently about how we could potentially do business with our partners. And one of them said, my partner lives in France, and I live in Africa, and we're trying to figure out how to do it. We were talking to her about leveraging technology to be able to do that, but they just couldn't get over that fact and how to do it and how we make it work.
What were your thoughts on that?
[00:05:51] Speaker A: Well, same as yours, just in that we take this long tour and just to set the stage for everyone a little bit.
If you've ever watched a summit that has a lot of people in the same room, we had earpieces in, we had translators. So it took me a minute to get the flow of the conversation having to slow down. I have a tendency to talk incredibly fast, so it took me a minute to get into the flow and try to be a better communicator than I would have, understanding that there was a language barrier. They spoke French and almost only French.
Yeah, there were some english words spoken, and I think we may have whipped out a mercy every now and again, but very heavily reliant on the translators. So the tour was very different than anything I had ever given, and trying to be very careful to really tell them what we were doing. I wanted them to benefit from their travels so much that I caught myself really slowing down and trying to pick words that were a little less technical in spots that weren't very americanized. So go through all that, get back into the conference room, and it was okay. What questions do you have? Every single one had a comment about the relationship component, like you were referring to, and even to the point where each of them said they had to sign contracts when they were going into a particular role or job. They had to sign a contract and said they would not engage intimately or in a relationship with anybody in the business. And the other thing that my takeaway was one of the women that was touring, who's a little bit on the older side and seemed to be incredibly engaged in the community, said, well, we're probably a little old for this now, but we can do a better job with the kids that are coming through. We can start to change this and maybe not let this negative view happen as it relates to having a relationship or being able to partner with somebody of the opposite gender and have it be not only successful, but be empowering for everyone else around. And you told them a great story about what it looks like and how it's empowering to the people around us, your individual organizations, better minds, better.
[00:08:09] Speaker B: I can speak to what I said to wrap this up with a bow, I just said, well, one, because I have experienced similar situations that they were talking about at other companies where the relationships were frowned upon. And you weren't supposed to have relationships, and somebody got fired if you did. That's how it works. So this isn't like, this is a foreign concept in the states. One thing I pointed out was, I understand what they're saying, and I do think it can be a conflict of interest. If you have two people on a side of organization that are way more interested in their relationship than they are on work, you have a problem. However, we were doing business together for a long time before we got into a relationship. So that was one before we moved our companies in together. We were doing business way before that. But I think it takes two people, I know it takes two people that are super aligned. And as we always talk about, so supportive that I'm supporting what you're doing, you're supporting what I'm doing wholeheartedly. There's no competition, there's no jealousy, and you are always making me better, and I hope that I'm always making you better. And thus, because of that, our organizations are benefiting. So everyone around us, our teammates, see that. They see how much better we are together, and hopefully how much better we're making the organization. So anyone's going to buy into that, but I could see how it could go the other way. But if you've just got the right alignment in the right relationship, it can be so much more powerful than just if. I was singularly trying to do this myself. So I think that was the difference that I was trying to explain why I think it works, but may not always.
[00:09:45] Speaker A: Yeah, no, and again, the translation component, that was interesting. Literally translating. Right.
[00:09:52] Speaker B: But they were so engaged on those comments.
[00:09:56] Speaker A: They were physically leaned in. I was watching the engagement. They were physically leaned into the ideas around what we do and how we do it.
[00:10:02] Speaker B: And each of them had said, I think every single one of them, or at least half, said that they had thought about doing business with their partners and how to do it. So it's a thought that's running through their head. I think it just speaks to. We sometimes take this for granted, like it's normal, but it really is a different dynamic for a lot of people.
[00:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah, that was great. What a cool start to the day.
[00:10:27] Speaker B: Very cool. And I will wear this bracelet and remember them, which is cool.
[00:10:30] Speaker A: Yeah. And I have my keychain to look across at and just cool parts of the journey that we get to do. And when someone reaches out, like World Trade center, my first thought is, heck, yeah, they're doing something cool. It's going to be someone or a group from somewhere that's not here, and their perspective is going to be really different and really interesting. And then throw in the language barrier component. That was just a whole new thing. I've definitely never sat in a conference room with live translators with an earbud in watching and having to really lean into the back and forth of what was going on so I could give a good answer because they worked hard to get here, and I have all the respect for it.
[00:11:06] Speaker B: Yeah. I will say, if I'm being honest, I'm not always approaching these opportunities as heck. Yeah. Which I should be. And the truth is, a day like today, and I really didn't know what to expect to be fair, but that's also an excuse.
I've been so overwhelmed with work, and I'm putting out a lot of fires this morning, fires that I have not gotten to yet, to be honest. But as they're coming in, I'm thinking to myself, I don't have time for this. I need to handle my business right now. And it's almost like initially it was a chore for me, and that's how I walked into the room. Now I'm walking out with a new perspective. So appreciative, gratitude, all those things. But it took me begrudgingly almost going into it. And then after I get out, I'm like, wow, I'm such an asshole to not go into that. So grateful from the beginning I am. I come out and I get it, and I understand it's 100% where I want to be, what fulfills me. But sometimes I go into it so focused on my work and caught up, and that's something I've had to work on for myself. Like, get over yourself.
That is going to be there in 3 hours.
It's a bigger world out there.
I love these experiences. They put me in my place. They humble me, and they remind me, like, it's a much bigger world out there. Way bigger than you and way more important than you will ever be. And it's such a great lesson.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: Well, it's also where it's great to have each other too, because there are times when I show up and am a little off or a little cranky, where today I had to pull you along just a little bit because you're working. It's not like you're over there just being crotchy for the sake of being crotchy. You have legitimate stuff piling up and people relying on you, and that's part of the job, right? That's part of what we sign on for. But there are times when I'm a little cranky or not engaged, and it's great to have you right across the room looking at me like, you're not getting out of this, so why don't you just stand up and come on in? Because we're doing this today. And that's when it's great to have each other.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: At the end of the day, if you're running a business, and it's one thing if you're putting in 40 hours a week, and then you're just not putting in the time. But for people that for us who are putting in just so many hours, if you're not going to do or experience or take advantage of these opportunities, you're missing, because with everything you do with the work, with the sacrifice and commitment and at least do the things, the really cool things that we're going to learn for with experiences like this, they're once in a lifetime.
[00:13:38] Speaker A: Yeah, true.
[00:13:39] Speaker B: All right.
[00:13:41] Speaker A: Great morning.
[00:13:41] Speaker B: Great morning. Yeah, we do like to go in with topics. Sometimes we're just free flowing more than others. And that'll be today. And one of the things you said, what are we talking about today? And I said, money. And you said, give me a little bit more context. And he said, no, that is the context. It's money. And it was curious to me that you were so inquisitive about more like just the topic of money, because that's really how little you and I tend to talk about money. It's like, well, what about money?
Just the topic.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: What about it?
[00:14:21] Speaker B: What about it?
[00:14:23] Speaker A: Moving right along.
[00:14:24] Speaker B: Truly.
Of course, we've got to understand the financial positions of our company. That's not what I'm saying.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: But you and I sitting around talking about money happens almost.
[00:14:39] Speaker A: Uh, so I had a great thought. Thank you, CNBC. So I was driving in today and Susie Walsh was on, who is Jack Walsh, former CEO of General Electric's wife, who is at NYU as a professor. And she was on to talk about a poll that had just recently come out and it was talking about the current generation. So probably, Tommy, your generation coming through and the questioning was around. Tell me about your excitement for the future. And then there was also a component that talked about the financial component. So a couple of things that were very encouraging. A 75% of the respondents were excited about their future. Nice.
[00:15:21] Speaker B: Not what I expected you to say.
[00:15:23] Speaker A: No. And I think that was the reason it was on and so poignant. Because it's almost like there's this idea or this belief being proliferated that Gen Z coming through. And I'm just talking about a generation in time, right. I'm not stereotyping or profiling the particular generation, but the idea that everybody's miserable and nobody, and there isn't any particular hope. This was completely in the face of that. So that was ecstatic to hear it. But then there was also another conversation that got into money, and it was around expectations for earnings.
The simple answer was the generation wanted to make enough. And versus my generation or prior generations, that would have said very flatly or standardly, I want to do better than my parents. And the whole conversation went to the idea that underlying that response of enough, it would be anything that would be antianxiety, right. So the word enough would be about I would have enough financial resources to do what I wanted to do, whatever that is. And thus there would not be any anxiety brought into the conversation. So she went into this piece about there's a lot of underlying anxiety and just happened to talk about some of the things that this particular generation has gone through, whether going back to 911 in 2001, right. And throwing the financial crisis in 2008, throwing a pandemic. So the generation that's here now, if you just stop and think about some of the influences that have happened or significant events. If both your parents work for General Motors, and I have friends who did, who came from Detroit and they both got laid off in the same week in 2009 as the markets completely seized up because there was no credit then that's a really hard experience, and that's going to leave an indelible mark on you and your worldview and any number of things. But this whole thing was really around. There is excitement, but the economic goals really being more tied to a lack of anxiety than anything that would have quantitative benefit. Maybe I'll say it that way. Right? Versus stuff is the dumb way to say that, right? It would be more about having enough to avoid anxiety. So there's an interesting thought about money or financial resources as a way to thwart anxiety, not necessarily about getting stuff interesting.
[00:17:58] Speaker B: I don't know.
Interesting thought. I don't think. Again, I'm sure that is representative of some of that generation.
[00:18:08] Speaker A: Well, the polls are only so big. Of course they are. They always are only about x number of thousand people. So they're not massive. But considering the size of that generation, it's right up there with the boomers as it relates to total number of people born at that particular time.
[00:18:21] Speaker B: So, yeah, it's big Gen, but I also think it's more than anything. Well, I believe this. I don't know. I think people are impacted. Their perspective on money a lot of times has to do with how they were raised and brought up around money. And of course it impacts how you think about money until maybe you're mature enough to grow out of that mindset. But that takes a while, and I think it sticks with you, maybe forever.
So the way I was raised was, I never heard my parents talk about money, ever.
We were middle class, as far as I knew. We never worried. I was never wanting anything.
We were not rich by any means, but I didn't know any different, really, until I got into high school. And I got a scholarship to go to private high school. Very expensive, but got a full scholarship. Very lucky to get that for soccer. And then I started realizing what people with real money was. I had been around it, of course, but this was. Everybody had money. I was like, oh, okay, I don't have that. It didn't change.
It just put things into perspective. But it wasn't until I was in high school, but like I said, I never won. My sister and I never wanted for anything. And we never heard my parents argue about money, and we never heard them really talk about.
It's just never been a big thing for me. Definitely never a focus. One thing I can say is I have always, my whole life, been a saver. And I think we always talk about the difference between a scarcity and abundance mindset. And so, not that I was ever particularly frugal or stingy, as one would say, but I certainly didn't have the abundance mindset. And I think even when we met, even to this day, I'll do certain things that are, like, really?
For $0.10. But that's just sometimes I will do that. Now, my brain has definitely evolved, and I've definitely leaned more towards, I would say, probably right in the middle of that mindset, but you've definitely helped me develop that and shift my mindset around money in that regard a little bit.
[00:20:40] Speaker A: Right. But still, yeah. And I would describe you as appropriately careful. Right. When we met, you were coming out of an absolute bootstrap startup. I mean, if it failed, you've used the term many times. There was no safety net, there was no fallback, and that's exactly how you have to manage in those moments. I got to watch it with my father, who was born in 1921 as a depression era child, and then off to World War II and the things I speak about a lot here, but there's a guy that would reach into the trash can and pull out a used envelope and make his notes for the day. He would never dream of getting a new piece of paper out. That's just the way the conditioning was, because they were truly operating in scarcity at that particular time when the stock market crashed. And talk about a worldview shaping event when you're that age coming through the depression and the rebuild from behind it and a couple of world wars, that's what I got to watch.
I don't know. Same as you, I grew up an only child just because my stepfather had a daughter who was already out of the house then. So for me, I was the only one in the house, regardless of what the family chart looked like. I only knew of me in the house. And like you said, for me, there was an abundance, which was just more than I needed. Right. And it's all very relative to what an abundance is. We didn't have a helicopter, but we did have a microwave. And we were towards the top buyers of microwaves in the land of microwaves when I was a kid. So I always felt like I had an abundance. And I think that's just the word, right? If you do, you do.
We meet a lot of kids, for example, in the city or in different socioeconomic groups that we're in, and they would say the same thing. They feel like they have an abundance as well. So I think that word abundance is really unique and particular to an individual. And there might be people that would look at our upbringing and feel sorry for us, right. And think, gosh, you would consider that an abundance? And I would say, yeah, sure I did. I didn't want for anything. If I didn't, I didn't.
[00:22:48] Speaker B: Yeah, you make a really good point there. I'm talking about childhood, but conditionings a bit through as I'm starting this business, which was only seven years ago, and it was the first two years of that. So only five years ago, I was literally thinking about every penny that went in and out. That doesn't change in five years. I mean, I've had a really hard time shifting my mindset and then my behavior after that mindset and saying, okay, you do have some cash now that you should, for the best for your business, be spending that money, whether it's in hiring or bringing consultants, and it's going to pay off, whether it's financially or whatever. But being able to shift that and say, okay, you are in a different position, cash position now. And things change. The way you run a business, the things you spend money on, it has to change as you grow. So that evolution has been slow, but I think I'm getting better, whatever that means. But it certainly stayed with me like those days where I was scrapping for everything. And a part of that is good. I always want to carry some of that scrap with me and never let that go. But I think you could be in a position where you would say, as you're listening to this, well, of course, Mick and Britt, now that you have successful or thriving businesses and you do have money, it's really easy for you to sit at that table and say, you don't talk about money or you don't think about it. And I would say, good point.
How would you respond to that? I know how I would respond. How would you respond?
[00:24:32] Speaker A: Well, I would point out to a demonstration, which I speak about a lot here. So what you say is one thing and what you do is something different. And something we can share with the viewers is I am very against what I would call stockpiling assets and having them be underutilized. So, for example, we have two people and we have two cars, we don't have a third car. So there's just certain things that I still just don't subscribe to. One. Not a stuffed person. I never will be a stuffed person. I'd much rather get on an airplane and go see something and meet the people in that particular place. That's my favorite thing to do. Experiential is experiential, yeah, but things I can learn from too.
And I love experiencing different people in different places. That's very attractive to me as it relates to learning. But I would say demonstration wise, we don't stockpile resources. We don't stockpile assets. We don't have unused, really anything. I mean, even the things in our house, if we're not certain we're going to use them, I would say as it relates to how we invest or what we spend our money on. And I don't mean invest stock market invest. I mean, if you have a dollar and you have a choice to make with it, what are you going to do with it? And you and I still have some great conversations about that in that we're just not wasteful and do have respect for. I'll say a lot. I mean, I have a propensity to equate everything to pretax dollars. I will automatically think, how much money do I have to make to have that left after it goes into taxes. And that's something that my father taught me along the way. I just listened to it. It wasn't, sit down, son. Let me tell you what taxes and after tax, it was this osmosis thing that went around where he looked at a spend or a particular buy, if you will, and he'd think, how many dollars do I have to make to have that money left? And is it as important or valuable as it was before I did that calculation? So I would say, based on our demonstration and what we do and how we do it, that we're still very responsible. Frugal being one thing and wild ass being another one. I would say responsible. I'm very cognizant of how hard it takes to make and really keep a dollar, whether it's through taxes or so on and so forth. So I would say, still hyper responsible with it. One thing I'm not, though, is terrified or fearful. I mean, I've met any number of people in my travels that didn't make it, didn't make the money individually or personally, right? It could have been gifted, could have been inherited, something or so forth.
And I've watched them be far more frugal than I was, right? Or even cheap, if you want to pick that word. And I think there's something in there that's more along the lines of, if you haven't made it for yourself, then you're really afraid about what you're doing with it or losing it. I don't feel that way. But not the point that I would be irresponsible or do something stupid, but that's not in my calculus. I mean, if it all went away tomorrow, I would keep a smile on my face and just start building again. That would be my approach. It doesn't even cross my mind.
[00:27:26] Speaker B: Two points to that. One. You were talking about going back to your point about not stockpiling and not having. I mean, we have some nice things, of course, but not having too much. I would even go a step further and say that actually gives us anxiety when we talk about having a massive house or a couple of houses, all these things that sounds overwhelming and exhausting, and we want no parts of it. That is just not the opposite of.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: Agile, which you and I really love.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: That's what we love. And that agile and freedom. If you're going to be loading these big toys and big houses, that takes all of that away from us. That is not fun for us. To your last point about making a dollar, I think that's the difference. I have totally shifted my mindset, because now I have taught myself that you can build a business and you can be successful and you can make money a lot of different ways because we've done it through our businesses, we've done it through different investments, all different kinds of stuff. So I am the same thing. I am not worried about.
I know there's so much money out there, it's no but going away. And there are a million ways to make it. I'm not worried about losing it because I know there's a way to make it. So that's great. That's very freeing feeling. And I agree that if you haven't learned how to make a dollar or done it successfully, you wouldn't have that mindset. It'd be hard to. But once you do and you can adopt that mindset, it gives you a little bit more freedom, for sure, at least mentally.
[00:28:58] Speaker A: Risk. And from then risk. Right. Then that starts to build onto things about what would you consider or what do opportunities look like now versus then? I remember when our business was on much more fragile footing. I think is a great way to say, just go back to the late 90s. My dad died in 1995 when I was 24. If you looked at the late 90s time period in retrospect, we were spiraling the drain, and I was too dumb and too naive to know it. Thank goodness, because I might have frozen or it might have been crippling in spots. I was so dumb and happy go lucky that I just went to work. And fortunately for me, I loved it. So it didn't even feel like work. It was. Well, I don't know. This is what you do.
So that was helpful. But I also know that my risk profile then and now, is different. Again, not from a wild perspective, but there's a confidence that you build along the way. We talked about a number of episodes. Ray Lewis, one of my favorite linebackers. Seeing the angles as you get deeper into business and these opportunities present, they look more familiar, which makes them more comfortable, which makes them seem or feel less risky. And those are things that you start to build on, that mindset of stacking things on top of each other as you're learning and being able to leverage opportunities differently and more effectively, those are things you learn which also takes away a little bit of what could be that pressure around the word money.
[00:30:28] Speaker B: Yes. And I have an example of that today. It is nice when you have a little bit of that flexibility and freedom. We were talking about a potential. I was with my vp today, a potential $11 million deal, but it could come with a very tough customer. A lot of headache, a lot of risk that we don't want to assume. And it's nice to be able to say if it can't be on these particular terms and conditions, I don't want it and be very okay with that decision. In the beginning, I would have taken it every time and put ourselves in a position of risk. So not to have to do that is at this point, which is seven years now into my business, certainly feels good, and I am thankful for that. Now, next point I want to get to, which might ultimately be the most important thing we say.
I will not say that money does not matter to me. And I will not say that I don't want to make a lot of money.
Anybody that sits there and says, it really doesn't matter to me, I'm not interested. It might not be your top priority. Got it. It's not ours at all, but it's important to me and it does make a lot of life easier in certain situations. And there are certain things that I do want money on. It's where we spend it and what we do with it and the intention behind it that I think it's important. But yes, just like most people, I do want money. And I do think people should be rewarded financially for hard and good work. So a couple of the things that I do enjoy money is to be able to provide a great quality of life for my family. First of all, that and having the money helps allow me to do that. I think that employees, your employees and your teammates, they should be paid well so they can live a quality of life. I'm not talking about unreasonable, as we were talking about a level where they do not have to have anxiety constantly about where their next dollar is coming from. Experiential, as you and I talked about, we like to experience, we like to do, we like to learn. We are curious. Feeding that sometimes takes money. And there are just certain things that I don't want to have to worry about. And it could be any number of things. Doing something goes wrong in our house. If we need somebody to come in for a plumbing, electrical, cleaning, whatever it is, and it's something that you and I just don't particularly want to do, it is nice to be able to pay for that. So I just want to make sure we say that. And we don't sit here and just lie through our teeth because there are so many people that get up in front of a camera and say, really doesn't matter to me. Well, that's bullshit. It matters. It matters. Maybe to a certain degree, maybe you have different priorities, maybe you have different intentions, but it does matter. What are your thoughts?
[00:33:19] Speaker A: Well, you hit on something that said certain things we don't want to do, and that's part of it. But I do know I'm a lot more in tune with what I'm good at, and therefore I'm able to quickly measure the opportunity cost of certain things. Right. So you mentioned something breaks in the house.
There's any number of reasons why I don't do it. One of them, or one of the biggest ones is I'm very good at something else, and it's not that. So every minute that I'm doing that is a minute I'm not doing something that I'm very, very good at. And that's how I end up weighing it out. So that's not really just even a money conversation. It's about understanding the value of your time, but that value, equating it back to a dollar. So if the plumber costs this and takes 2 hours, and Mick says, what could he do with 2 hours? The plumber is a better deal for Mick and the way he values his time. So while I don't really want to do the plumbing work, could I? Sure I could. I mean, an automation division, sure, I can do the mechanical work behind plumbing or hit the YouTube video and figure it out. Promise I can, but I don't want to. My time is more valuable somewhere else. And those are the choices that I end up ultimately making around that which are all tied back to money and maximizing it and really maximizing my time as it relates to return on my personal time.
[00:34:33] Speaker B: So time is finite, and money is not.
All resources are finite. Okay? Time is something that you only have x amount of time in a day. You can get more money. I'm saying if I'm going to value money or time more, it's going to be my time. And that's part of what you're saying. That's part of your discussion. Am I going to spend my time and then looking of the opportunity cost of that time? You have changed my mindset on that for sure. And one of the conversations we were having yesterday is if somebody approaches you or you have somebody that's going to learn under you, whether it's a protege or someone like that, you have to look at what that means. If it's one thing, it feels like it's simply because I want to teach someone. But if you're bringing somebody in to actually add value to your life. You really have to do the math because you can look at that 1 hour of time. What is someone going to pay you for that 1 hour of time?
And then you've got to say, well, if I'm spending that hour and then just multiply it by however many on someone else, what are those opportunity costs that person has to be able to bring, if we're talking financially, x amount of value to me for it to make sense for me to spend that time. So thinking about when people come and say, I'll do anything, I just want to help your business, I'll work for free or whatever. Please understand that is not free for you. That is a lot of opportunity cost. So there's got to be real value that someone's bringing to the table for it to make sense. Because your time, you know what your time is worth.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Sure. You know, we have very serious conversations every year. Look, we love having interns, right? We love the idea of interns and internships, but those are really serious conversations we have every February, March. Right? So you got kids are finishing up their sophomore year at Maryland is a big drive for us. Delaware has been a great partner with us from an intern perspective. Towson has been a great driver for us. But we have some really hard conversations because every single person in the organization knows that interns, while paid less, we don't have any unpaid internships anymore. But while paid less than people that have similar skills with more experience, it's tough. I mean, we stick an intern with an engineer, their productivity drops. It actually doesn't go up. It's not like one plus one even equals two. That would be fine. Jesus, that would be amazing. It's not. It's that one plus one actually drags that engineer's time down. That one plus one might equal 1.2, maybe not.
[00:37:17] Speaker B: Maybe not. Maybe three quarters.
[00:37:20] Speaker A: It depends on the quality and experience of the intern, right. If they're picking up and they're starting to jive. But no, I mean, that opportunity cost, because I don't want to lose that. This is just another way of talking about it. But I don't know. I wish I knew the demographic of our listeners a little bit better because there's things that I had to learn the hard way. God, I was such a blockhead. But this is one I think I remember learning opportunity costs relatively early in my career and starting to equate this versus that. I mean, yes, there was a cost of doing it, but then I started to get very much in tune with, well, while I'm doing that. What else could I be doing? And that started to really shift the choices I made around finite resources like time. And if it became painting this or doing that. Now, when I was first taken over, there wasn't a choice. I mean, if the house needed to be painted, I was going to paint it because there wasn't any money to do it. If it needed to get painted, then I was going to do it. And then I was also going to have to figure out how to create enough hours to keep Arnold packaging, then Arnold's factory supplies afloat. But I also painted the house, whether it was 2 hours at night, from midnight to two, midnight to four. But once you start to shift that and get to make those choices, then this or that piece, while I'm taking the time to do it, what am I not doing? And what I am truly have become an expert in. That's when it shifts or flips.
[00:38:43] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it's important to acknowledge not everyone can do it.
[00:38:46] Speaker A: Sure, absolutely.
[00:38:47] Speaker B: But that it's been in such a mindset shift because I've always had the propensity. If I can do it, I'm going to do it regardless of what it is. It could be something in the house that needs to get done. And I've asked you a couple of times, and we could be talking a couple of $100 or relatively speaking, not a ton of money. And you'll look at me like, why are you going to spend 2 hours?
That's 2 hours. Do the math. Like, you could make x amount in 2 hours, yet you're going to spend your time doing that. So just doing the math, the simple math, and approaching it that way, it also takes the emotion out of it. It's like, this is the math behind it.
[00:39:24] Speaker A: Yeah, it took me a long time to learn that. And it's not perfect either, because, no, of course, if you're not careful, then there's nothing you do. And then I check myself. There's so many things in my day or in my life where I check myself and say, mick, are you being lazy? Are you being a know. And I will check myself. And that's one where I will say, am I just being lazy? Know, is it really going to take that long? Are you really so good at what you do? You shouldn't spend that time? There are times where I will pull myself back and I will go plumb or I will go do whatever needs to be done.
It takes a while to master that, but you got to be honest, like everything else we talk about, you got to be so honest with yourself and making sure you're making the right choice where it would be easy to say because you don't like plumbing. Sorry, plumbers. I'm picking on plumbing, something I suck at, to say, oh, yeah, I'm definitely not doing the plumbing. There's someone way better at it than me. And by the way, they will probably do it in half the time. Right. I mean, that's the other part too. I know along the way, the number of projects I started and realize that I sucked at it in the middle and then ultimately pay the right person to come in to do it in any way.
That's right. Do that a few times, it'll push you back in that direction that we're talking about, too.
[00:40:37] Speaker B: I think it's interesting. Have you heard, obviously you've heard the phrase eat what you kill.
[00:40:42] Speaker A: Yes, one of my favorites.
[00:40:44] Speaker B: Yes. So mine too. And especially as something about saying that as a woman has a negative connotation with it. I'm not saying it doesn't with a male, but it seems to be even when that comes out of a female's mouth, because I've said it before, it's like, oh, how dare you?
[00:41:01] Speaker A: That's nails across the chalkboard.
[00:41:02] Speaker B: Yeah, because I remember saying that bullshit. I said it out loud at one of my employers to the CEO and the president with pride. And it was like, what just came out of your mouth? It was very selfish and the worst thing that I could have possibly said.
I subscribe to that mentality. And one of the reasons I love owning a business is I can say it and I can adopt the mentalities I want and it can be top and so can everybody else in my organization. And it's okay or not. But I still love that philosophy. Because if I work hard, harder than anybody else, more deliberate, more intentional, more practice, I think that, yeah, I think that people that work harder for it deserve the reward. It doesn't always work perfectly or linear like that, but for the most part, on a macro level, people that are more intentional and deliberate with their time and are more consistent do reap the rewards.
[00:42:00] Speaker A: Right.
And I think, too, just because.
[00:42:03] Speaker B: Help me phrase that.
[00:42:04] Speaker A: No, just in that I would be careful about getting stuck on exclusively the hard work. It's about productivity, right. The people that can be most productive. And you might have to put in a ton of input to get the output. Other people get there a little faster, a little easier, but it would be to the most productive go the spoils. Right?
[00:42:22] Speaker B: Sure. That's the way hard to make, smart combination of. I think people get my drift though, what I'm saying. I really value hard work and I want people that are productive in the world and doing good things. I think that they should be rewarded for that. I think that's how you keep good people going.
But the one thing I think people negate is that I was never saying that. Sure, I want my hard work to pay off, of course, but I also really want the rest of my team, and that's my family, my teammates, my friends to benefit from that.
[00:42:59] Speaker A: Your husband?
[00:43:00] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. My team. I'm talking my collective team, which includes everybody in my life that I love or are just part of the crew.
Everyone's going to benefit.
I'm going to reap the rewards and it's all for me. It's like, so we can all enjoy it, right? And so it's like, yeah, I want to eat what I kill with my team and we can all have a piece of that. So I think that maybe that's an important differentiator. Maybe that phrase needs to be rephrased, but it's so I can do things with that that are going to be good for other people, the community, whatever it is, I'm going to do something with it that matters most of the time. Not always, of course, but my goal, when maybe I am getting a financial reward, I want to do something with that freaking matters, that benefits people, that helps.
That's what feels good. So when you get that money in. Yeah, I do love it. Because the feeling, or what I can do most of the time for other people, that feels really freaking good.
[00:44:07] Speaker A: Yeah. I think there's an old saying, a rising tide raises all boats. You and I both show up in.
[00:44:11] Speaker B: The same way in that, regardless, what's the point otherwise?
[00:44:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I completely agree. Because although we would just be stockpiling, right, if you're taking all this extra stuff, whatever that would be, and doing nothing with it, and that's definitely the mindset we hit on this some episode in the past. It doesn't even matter which one it is, but it was something along the lines of why grow? And for both of us, the reason to grow is to be able to do more for everyone else around us. By the way, that also includes customers, right?
[00:44:37] Speaker B: We're adding new capabilities, vendors.
[00:44:39] Speaker A: Yeah, we are doing more, trying to be more attractive and more effective and making their lives easier. Better. So this whole ecosphere that you create is about making every single person better in the ecosphere, right. And your wins become their wins, and vice versa. One thing we've been super intentional coming out of the pandemic is to get back to having fun together. Right? And that's not free, whether it's the 75 people we'll take to the ball game on Sunday or the hats that we bought to wear in solidarity around our company. Yeah, but there's other stuff, too. We're not taking those off. Meanwhile, I have watched any number of our manufacturers and people. They've just swept all. Whatever the travel funds are or the entertainment funds or whatever those is, swept them off the table in the pandemic, which was probably smart. There was so much uncertainty in 2020. It was, you know what? I'm putting my eggs over here in a safe place until I realize what the heck this is going to look like, and then I may get my eggs back out. I may not. Well, for any number of those companies, there's plenty of reasons to get your eggs back out and spend them on. Share them with your teammates, employees, whatever that happens to be in your ecosphere, and they're not. And that frustrates me and actually pisses me off because that's not what I want for our team here. I want them to want to come here and spend time together and be better because they know each other and they share intel. Right? Data being one thing, intel being something different. I want them to want to get together and spend time and figure it out together, how to build a better mousetrap for themselves, for their families, for the company, whatever happens to be the topic at that moment. And that's a reason. Back to the conversation. That's a reason to do that. Right. So you have the financial resources to spend that time with people that you really like, and they happen to be people you work with, too, which is cool.
[00:46:30] Speaker B: Well, that's the best. That leads me into the debate. If you were doing things solo, if you were making things solo, would you be fulfilled? If you made a shit ton of money and you were sitting in your house with it by yourself buying toys, I'd be miserable.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: That's not for me.
[00:46:44] Speaker B: No. Another thing, too. Say you do buy a toy, and it's like, well, what are you doing? You said the word shared. Buy a boat. What are you doing with it? Is it to flash it on instagram? Be like, hey, I'm rich. Look at it. Or it's like, yeah, we can take all of our friends, our customers, our vendors out and have great experiences. I think intention matters. Some people want to argue that intention doesn't matter. It matters. It matters a lot.
It's just like, what are you doing with those things? And I will say, I'm okay with, I want to be judged by demonstration. We could sit at this table, we can say whatever we want in front of this camera, judge us by the demonstration of what are we actually doing. What are you seeing? Because I feel really confident and we feel so strongly about this. It's unspoken. It's almost, I haven't been able to articulate well, because we never talk about this. So I'm not practiced at talking about this. Thus I'm stumbling over my words a lot in this conversation. But it's just really how we live. And it's not much of a conversation, but I will say, money is great. I love it. And the more I can do with it and give back, it's so amazing. Like, would you could just give stuff to people. Is there a better feeling?
I would say when you can share in that joy, and a lot of it does, you're able to do it because there's a financial resource to do it. It requires that.
[00:48:07] Speaker A: Yeah, no, it's the best.
[00:48:08] Speaker B: Whether to, it is the best.
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Your kids, your family, the people you work with, people you love, there's nothing about it. It's a driver, right?
[00:48:13] Speaker B: It is driver for me.
[00:48:14] Speaker A: You. It's the reason. And you're right, we don't talk about this because we're too busy. I hope doing and hope living and hope demonstrating.
And when we do get extra resources and we see opportunities to help and or share, whether that be and elevate and elevate. Yeah, but also our time too. There's a few different ways to accomplish that. There are any number of people that choose to write checks. We tend to be more on the time devotion side, whether that's salvation army or junior achievement or so on and so forth. I think getting the balance right for me can't speak for anybody else. Getting the balance right between financial contribution versus time contribution and being able to train coach influence, that is so fulfilling as well. Even much more so than stroking checks, if you will quote unquote stroking checks.
[00:49:07] Speaker B: Well, for two reasons. One, as we just talked about, time is more valuable to us than money. So when you're giving your time, you're automatically saying, this is very important to me. And then two, you are getting more out of dedicating your time than when you stroke a check to a nonprofit or a charity.
You don't get anything back. You don't see where that check is going. When you're giving the time, you're engaging, you're seeing it, you're getting something, you're giving, you're getting that whole experience that you love. So that's the difference.
[00:49:41] Speaker A: Yeah, totally agree. Boy. Talked about money. But I think as much as the.
[00:49:46] Speaker B: Topic was money, I'm not sure we really talked much about money itself. I think it was maybe more about their perspective or the intention or, I don't know, all the topics around money.
[00:50:01] Speaker A: Yeah, value is value, probably right. I think value is one of my favorite words around here. We talk about the value line, what you give versus what you get component. And there are times when I'll say, and I could be talking about really anything, I could say I don't love it, but it's above the value line. And that means that it's not wildly of value, but if I netted it all out, the give versus the get, it's above the value line. And I think value is a great word to try to, because it's hard to have a comparison if you don't have a numerator and a denominator. And I know as someone that's devoted to math like I am, I'm generally making comparisons. Productivity input versus output value. Right? For me to value something, I have to understand what the numerator and the denominator are. And the higher the numerator and the lower the denominator, just mathematically, the more benefit or the more value it has. So I do spend a lot of time, whether it's that opportunity cost, thinking about the entire quotient that is, considering both the numerator and the denominator, whatever.
[00:51:06] Speaker B: Those are, and I will say, I think if you would have asked me this question when I was younger, a fair amount younger, I would have had a different answer. And I think that most people in this world would agree, making a shit ton of money by yourself to buy fancy things might give you a short rush or might be pleasurable for a moment, but I think most people really do feel just so much more joy out of sharing it and giving back. But when you're younger and you don't have the wisdom and most importantly, the experience, that probably wouldn't have been my answer. I looked you in this. It was. I was shooting you straight. I probably would have been like, no, money is really important. It is the priority. I want to make a lot, and I think there are a lot of younger people that would be sitting here listening to that be like, I don't know what you're talking about I want all the fancy things and I'm going to love it. But as you grow, it didn't take me long to figure out what really made me happy and brought me joy. And I think as you grow and you experience most people, a lot of people, hopefully that mindset does start to shift. But I also want to be very conscious of saying, I also know now we are in a privileged position where we can think and do things differently. There are going to be other people listening to this podcast that aren't in the same position and are not going to be able to treat money the same way. But I also feel okay with saying it because I know that I had zero. I was in the red when I started my company, had nothing, and built it myself with my own hard work. And I know other people now. Of course I had maybe a more privileged platform to be able to build that off of.
I'm always going to be in a better position than a lot of other people. But I do know that I had to work really hard from zero to get where I am and that it's possible. So I think I've seen it from both sides of the table and I've been through every iteration and stage of money. So I think I do understand coming from having very little to now having some disposable income. But where we sit now as people are listening, it's not going to be the same for everybody.
[00:53:14] Speaker A: Right? But I think that's part of the goal of what we do here too, right? We spend a lot of time, certainly me having been in the workforce a bit longer, I do spend time talking about things like opportunity costs. I mean, one of my biggest goals here is to say, well, here's all the stuff I got absolutely wrong when I was younger boy, and I didn't have these type of learning vehicles when I was coming through. I mean, whether I really relied on suppliers like three M, I mean, I would go to their training and I was fortunate enough to be put in front of someone that was really smart, who had a concept or had figured something out and they shared it. And I still have a lot of that entwined. And I think that's great that they're intertwined, intertwined, intertwined, whatever.
[00:53:55] Speaker B: Oh, I had to do that because you were giving me shit for evil's, evil's advocate, that was worse.
[00:54:03] Speaker A: Entwined and evil's advocate are definitely not the same. Help me out, Tommy.
[00:54:07] Speaker B: I know, but I just feel like I had to get you where I could.
[00:54:11] Speaker A: Were you waiting to spring that the whole. No, just. Just the idea that. I think it's great that we have a platform like this to tell some of the truths along the way.
I'm happy to sit here and tell you how many times I got it wrong because there's a lot more I have to share. Episodes will be no trouble having to figure out all the stuff I've got.
[00:54:30] Speaker B: The other part of this that's really fun is we probably would never sit down and have this kind of conversation. We would have a logistical, let's go over our finances and we don't even do that as much as we should, but very mathematical, logical conversation. That's what we would have at home. We would never sit there together for an hour and throw our thoughts around about our perspective about money.
This is the only time we would do that, which is fun, because sometimes I explore parts of my mindset and have to extract, well, what do I really think about this? It's live. It's fluid. Not that fluid. Sometimes it's not fluid at all, but you know what I'm saying? It's real time. And it makes me, afterwards, I think more about these things. Like, what do I really think and feel? Do my actions show that?
[00:55:19] Speaker A: Right? Yeah, well, look, I mean, the growth here is something. It's very legit. And we'll spend the next seven days right as we're coming into our next topic or whenever our next recording time is. But, yeah, we work hard at this.
Not just this, but anything would be disingenuous or bullshit. Right. I mean, we'd be really angry about. So I was, like, listening back to it and thinking, okay, yeah, we're getting it.
[00:55:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And audience, if you want to continue to hopefully grow with us, that's part of it. Again, please. We'd really appreciate if you subscribed and watch and engage, ask questions. Tell us we're wrong. Tell us your thoughts. That's the fun part. That's what we're talking about. That's what we live for.
[00:56:04] Speaker A: Yeah. We don't want an echo chamber.
[00:56:05] Speaker B: Hell, no.
[00:56:06] Speaker A: All right, money. Good topic.
[00:56:09] Speaker B: Cheers.
[00:56:09] Speaker A: Cheers, Tommy. Thank you, as always.
[00:56:11] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks.
[00:56:12] Speaker A: Cheers.
[00:56:15] Speaker B: It's close.
