Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: What am I closing for? Like, what is the goal? So many salespeople, young, new, whatever, sloppy, lazy, don't actually take the time to define what the close in that part of the process looks like. I'm not mistaking this with the ultimate win or lose clothes. I just mean what I'm trying to do to get onto the next step in the process.
Welcome to Ace Rodney.
[00:00:30] Speaker B: Hello, I am Britt Arnold, president of Tigler Construction and supply.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: And I'm Mick Arnold, president of Arnold packaging and Arnold Automation.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: And today we're getting into our favorite topic, how to crush it in sales.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Yes, I'm so excited. I've been waiting for this for a while because I don't have a lot of superpowers, but if I had to pick one, it's sales. I'm a salesperson without question.
[00:00:50] Speaker B: I think we can go bullet point by bullet point on this one.
[00:00:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I like it. Want me to start? Yes, I'm gonna start. And the reason I wanna start is because a couple things. One, I've just been so frustrated growing up under my father. I was raised very proudly as a salesman. Salesperson. Salesman. I'll say salesman. Cause I'm a man as a salesman. And I've just watched the perception of the profession degrade over the years. And I'm not sure if that's because of certain types of salespeople that are out there, whether it's the cheesy used car salesman, I'll just pick that one. And everybody knows the stereotypical or the high pressure or the one that used to get you up prior to email, but you know, the one that used to get you up from the dinner table because they were smiling and dialing at 06:00 but for whatever reason, there just seems to be this erosion around the perception and what I considered one of the most noble and proudest professions in sales. And that's why I was really excited to do this. Because in my 30 year career, I've watched it fall apart, in my opinion. And I've watched it fall apart with people that sell to me. I've watched it fall apart in observing people selling to other people. And I've also watched it fall apart in our organization in spots.
And I notice it if people come from other sales type organizations and listen, some of it can be with what you're selling, products and services, and we can get into that for sure. But I don't know, there's just been this departure. And I know it's not exactly new because we used to piss my father off a lot, too. And I'll tell you some stories as we go through this or that, some demonstrations of what would happen and why he would be pissed and what he'd say about it as another person, another guy. That was a true sales professional. But the reason I want to start it was because sales is a process, just like anything else. And for whatever reason, there's this propensity to skip, cut corners, not approach the way you would approach anything else. That is a process. I mean, when I talk to our sales organization, I will talk about it like a recipe. You know, if you're baking bread, then you have ingredients and you have times and temperatures, but you follow a very specific process on the way to making what would be delicious bread. And the penalty if you skip a step, miss a step, or don't complete a step in its entirety is you get bad bread or whatever it is, and the sales process is exactly the same. Yet somehow salespeople just want to take liberties with the process, and then on the other side, are shocked when they have a bad sale. And we can talk about what a bad sale looks like, but I want to keep this in a very upbeat way. But this can be a very frustrating topic for me in the way I watch people execute, and certainly very diametrically opposed to the way that I was taught to sell, either by my father or some great sales organizations, really manufacturers that we worked with that had really strong sales process and a very strong sales approach. And I've watched that be, be tossed to the wayside in the last, I'll say a few years longer than that. I feel like this has been degrading over a period of time.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Can you concisely explain, maybe even step one through four, five, six, what that process is? I mean, just in a nutshell?
[00:04:26] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. I'll just. Yeah, very easily, and I'll just use ours. And they can vary a little bit. You can have arguments about how many steps are in the process, but ours is very simple. It starts with identify, penetrate, present, propose. Close five is what we have it narrowed down to. And close really means win or lose. You know, you don't always close, but at that point you have done all of the work. Or if you've done it correctly, you are at least up to the point of winning or losing, which in our sales process is called close. So it's simple. It's a five step process.
[00:05:01] Speaker B: Now, would you suggest that sales is not about personality and the particular human as much as it is about the process and the strategy and the tactics and the techniques within?
[00:05:17] Speaker A: No, I think it's not. Yeah, I don't want that to sound mechanical in nature. I mean, there are certain mechanics to it, and you do have to follow the process. Now, that's not to say that there aren't opportunities where you jump over certain parts of the process. I'll give you an example.
And a lot of times, back to our sports analogies, when we're talking about trying to describe the sales process to somebody that's on our team. And I'll tell you when I do it a lot, is if we have someone that is not necessarily in sales. So, for example, our applications engineers are very customer facing. They're not technically salespeople, but boy, do they have a customer facing role in the organization. Do they have a tremendous amount of customer involvement and customer contact? They have a tremendous amount. So that's usually when I find myself explaining the sales process to them so that they understand and can take the cues. So I don't want it to sound mechanical where, you know, like robotic way you do this and you do this and you do this, but at the same time, you have to be very aware of the process and very intentional about it. But let's just case in point, you know, identify, penetrate. Well, let's just say our marketing team does a great job and generates a lead. Someone comes in through a Google Ad because they paying a call to action. Well, that's a beautiful situation because you've jumped, you know, you've jumped over, identify and penetrate and you've gone right into the present mode. What a great spot to be because of all of those steps in the process. I would argue or suggest that penetrate is the hardest one, the absolute hardest one. So we'll stay on the process. I don't want to jump ahead, but no, to answer your question, I don't think that's in the absence of personality. Like, you still have to make a connection, right? You're still across the table, across the whatever medium you happen to be using, whether it's in person or phone or Internet or chat, who knows what it could be, right in today's world of digital. But it still comes down to two individuals are part of the process and the transaction. And I'm not saying it should feel transactional, but a sale is really a transaction takes place at the end of it. Most of the time you might choose not to do anything, but in general, you're going to get to close and a choice is going to be made and a transaction will happen.
[00:07:50] Speaker B: I think that's a really good segue into the difference between sales and business development. So where you just said sales leads to a transaction or a close or some ending conclusion, business development doesn't. Right. Like in my head, I look at business development as a business development manager. Somebody that's in BD, they're identifying. Maybe they're part of the process of identifying prospecting, but there's that eventual handoff to sales. Right. And I know in your company we were smaller. We don't have separate BD and sales, and it's really all intertwined. But I know at Arnold you do, there's BD specifically, then there's sales specifically. What are the differences in your organization, BD in sales? Because they're not the same.
[00:08:43] Speaker A: You know, we've really come off of that BD piece. We went down that road and this just happened organically. It wasn't like we woke up one day and said, nope, these people are gone because they have the title BD. But we definitely identified that certain sales types are stronger at certain parts of the process than the other. So we just talked about the first two. Identify. Let me just talk about identify for a second. Identifying our industry is, I would say, of the steps, it's the easiest. And by that, I mean there's a lot of tools out there, right? I mean, if you went to a Hoover's database or you went to a product like sales intel or Zoom info, you know, for us, what we're going to do is we're going to pull a standard industrial classification, a group of people like, we do a great job with aerospace, we talk about on here all the time. You know, identifying for us is a relatively easy step in the process. I would imagine other things that you're selling, it might be a little harder to identify your, your target audience. Where for us, we know after 91 years the segments where we have a lot of success. People making things, people distributing things. And then if you drill down into those segments, aerospace, we do a great job with. Defense, we do a great job with. So to my way of thinking, and I know because I've watched our vp of sales do a great job with building out the identification process, saying, hunt here, right? Here's where you want to hunt. Here are the names. And I've even given you, here's the company names or the prospect names, and I've even given you a tool called sales intel, where you can look up and get some reliable people inside that these are going to be heavy influencers or decision makers. So I think the identify part is probably the easiest in our sales. That may not be for everybody. But as it relates to your question about BD versus salespeople, I think when I experienced BD people, and I've watched this word, I mean, there was no such thing called business development when I started in sales 30 years ago. And in general, a salesperson was responsible for all five steps in the process. I think what's happened, or if I'm looking that analytically, it would be to say the BD person owns one and two. Step one, identify. Step two, penetrate. And then when it comes to present, they may not have a level of subject matter expertise that would have them proficient enough to continue to move the sales process. So if I look at it or broke it down, I think that BD person would handle step one and two and then be looking to hand off to a subject matter expert for present, propose and close.
[00:11:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. I look at it exactly the same, and I was in a BD role prior to starting the business I have today, tag learning construction, and I loved it.
[00:11:30] Speaker A: And so did I get that right? Just the idea that you own step one and two?
[00:11:34] Speaker B: Yes. The only, and I'm sure many people in BD and sales can relate to this. The issue was issue or challenge, I would say, was in that BD role, I would create really good rapport with people where they didn't want to be handed off to someone else. It was like, we need you to take us all the way through the process, which I really like the sales component, too. And a lot of times I did end up going through the process. So here I am in BD, and a large portion of my time is now being sucked into sales as well. So then I am not doing as much BD. And I think that happens a lot because it always comes down to relationships.
[00:12:17] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah. No, that's a great point. You bring up and then the counter onto that. If you continue down that road, then you end up with what looks like a boom and bust selling cycle. Right. Because you're busy closing and then you awaken and you don't have any more pipeline because you were too busy to continue to build the pipeline. So I think there's been. So back to the steps in the process. My frustration a lot of times I don't know where this business development thing came from. I don't know that it was as intentional as saying, well, you know what, steps one and two aren't for everybody, and steps three, four and five aren't for everybody either. So how would we break those up?
I started to experience this word business development as it started, as it related to different industries that were generally very white collar. So, for example, the accountant had a business development person, the banker had a business development person, the lawyer had a business development person. And it almost came off to me at times, like they were too good to call themselves salespeople versus. Oh, no, no, no. We just know that Mick is very strong at identify and penetrate. But he's not a lawyer, so we can't, you know, so we don't. When it comes time to talk subject matter expertise, which would be that present, he's simply not qualified. But he's great at meeting people, and he can generate tremendous amount of interest in our law firm, but he's just not a lawyer, and that's why we don't have him in that spot. But the other thing about that.
[00:13:47] Speaker B: So it's almost going back to our one episode. It was generalist, which might be the BD versus specialist, which you would say would be the lawyer or the doctor.
[00:13:59] Speaker A: Subject matter expert is a great one. Yeah. Is that same mantra. But that wasn't necessarily my experience. My experience of people that they called themselves business development was that they would show up at networking events. They'd shake hands, kiss babies, drink drinks, and then go away. And I would run into people that were selling things like copiers. Right. I mean, I'm pretty sure there's a copier in every business in the history of business, right? So I would sit next to a copier person, and we would have great rapport, and at no point would he ask me if I wanted to buy a copier. It blew my mind. It was almost this idea of, if I hang around long enough, maybe Mick will figure out he should ask me if he can buy a copier. Like, that was my. As an experienced salesperson, used to frost my tail a little bit.
[00:14:48] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's. So let's get into. Let's get into the nitty gritty in some of the processes within the larger process or some of the strategies. Cause one of the things I have on here is ask for the order. And while you may be sitting here in sales saying, ask for the order, well, no shit, it doesn't happen a lot. And I just had a coaching moment with one of my teammates, my younger teammates and newer in the industry, and he would send, and continues, we all send proposals and quotes. Send it and say, here's your proposal. Thanks. And whenever I send it, I say, here's your proposal review. And let me know if we can place this PO, like asking for the order almost when I'm sending the quote. And if nothing else, it elicits a response of some sort. Cause a lot of times you send these pricing and you don't get a thanks, you don't get any acknowledgement. So you don't know if it was received.
If nothing else, by saying, are you ready to place the PO or how can I help you place a Po or get this order delivered, you are eliciting a response that they at least got it and almost asking for the sale at the same time. And I really like that approach, but that's what I was telling him. Like, you have to ask for the order. Don't just send the quote.
[00:16:03] Speaker A: Right. I mean, it almost has a feeling like that quote goes off into some black hole.
[00:16:06] Speaker B: That's right. And it does a lot of times.
[00:16:08] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, sure it does. Yeah. And to never follow up, it would be.
So if that prospect is considering two or three options, right. And you send your quote into a black hole, and let's just say, all things being equal, I quote a dollar, you quote a dollar and Tommy quotes a dollar and I send mine off into the black hole. And you got. And you send yours off and put a note on there about, let me know how I can help you place it. And Tommy sends it off and calls and follows up the next day, all things being equal, at a dollar, a dollar, one where we have comparable, it looks like similar value propositions. Tommy's taken that order. I can promise you that. Tommy's taken that order.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: And I actually have them as two different points. So one asking for the order and the second one following up.
[00:16:54] Speaker A: Yeah, well, let's not. So that's down towards close. I want to stay towards the front of the process just a little bit because let me ask you. So back to your industry, Mitchell, shake your hand.
[00:17:06] Speaker B: Yeah, we should have wrote the keep going.
[00:17:10] Speaker A: In your industry, how do you find, identify?
What I'm suggesting is in our industry, whether it's 91 years old or having a relatively succinct or, I even go so far as to say obvious, having an obvious customer base, how do you find. Identify?
[00:17:29] Speaker B: How do I find identify?
[00:17:30] Speaker A: Yeah. Is identify. Is it hard for you to identify prospects?
[00:17:33] Speaker B: No.
[00:17:33] Speaker A: Okay, so same thing then. So I think the magic then the next step in the process is penetrated. Right. And that's something that I know from your days when you were in that BD role, that was your expertise. Right. That's where you really excelled was talking to a prospect, somebody that was buying your products or services and getting, and saying something inspirational enough that they would want to continue on. Right. That they would want, they would want. They wanted to continue to talk to you, as you just said, but. Or even be willing to be handled off to somebody in construction, let's just say, because that's what you were doing business development for.
[00:18:12] Speaker B: Correct.
[00:18:12] Speaker A: And I think that's where the magic is and someone who was excellent at it. What are some of your experiences of the penetrate component?
[00:18:24] Speaker B: I mean, what do you mean? I'm not quite sure what the question is. My experience is. I mean, you've got to shoot just like we always talk about, like, value proposition. Right, right.
[00:18:32] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, your job in that business development role was to get them in the door, if you will. Right. And have and continue conversation, which would be heading towards a presentation of some kind. Let me show you what we can do.
Identifying needs, you know, that part which you would be responsible for getting them in the door and continuing them, continuing on for the rest of the process. I mean, I know the preference would have been you would have handed them off, but they didn't want to be handed off. I mean, that's an interesting point that you made about the personality side, and that can be really challenging where there's a connection. And what if the subject matter expert's not capable of making the same connection that's really challenged.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
Yeah. I mean, it's just helping the customer and keeping it simple. I mean, just helping them through the process, making sure you're there, you're reliable, you're consistent, you're durable. I mean, I don't think it's that hard. I don't think it's that challenging, but it's just making sure you're, you're consistent and you're keeping it simple.
I mean, those were the best approaches. But again, I don't really fight this. Like, I don't in what we're doing now. We're not really, we don't have to do a lot of those first two steps.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: Right. So a lot of times you're, I mean, you've done such a good job with the first two that a lot of times you get to go right. To, if not present, even propose. Right.
[00:19:54] Speaker B: Yeah, often. I mean, in our business, it's rfps and that. So rfps request for proposals. So we're just, we're immediately just sending proposals in. So, yeah, we're skipping the first two steps.
[00:20:06] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: Okay.
All right. Anything else on those first two, I don't think so.
[00:20:13] Speaker A: I'm just the idea that where something else that's come a long way since I first got into sales are customer relationship management software. Everyone sort of Salesforce and some of these bigger platforms, but all that is, is an automation tool to help with the process and, but when you start using those tools and you have salespeople, we have twelve of them that are all inputting information, and you can watch it, because what they're doing is they're simply moving a prospect through the process. It would be Mick identified XYZ and he found the decision maker and he went in and made a presentation. The decision maker was interested enough to request a proposal and mix to the point where he finally gets to figure out if he wins or loses.
You know, you can watch what becomes very clear is where certain salespeople are struggling because of where the pile is, right? I mean, if I'm a salesperson and I have all of these prospects identified, but I can't get a meeting that would suggest that my penetration skills, right. I'm not able to say anything that's inspirational enough to the prospect to get in the door, to continue to tell my story, to continue through the process. So the CRM software has been interesting in helping to assess, assess or analyze salespeople for their weaknesses, because you can just look where the pile is, and if you're not able to identify it early on, then the salesperson can only lie or bend the truth until they get to win or lose, because at some point you have to win or lose. And if it just sits there, then you're probably going to have a sales manager, someone saying, what's going on with XYZ? What's going on with XYZ? And months go by, it would be, well, you, you gave a quote for a product that was very transactional in nature. Did they really not decide if they were going to buy your tape or not? And probably they're either not doing the type of follow up they should be doing to know that they lost. Could be timing, but far too many people, they will blame it on timing. No, they're not ready yet. Well, that's funny, because 30 days, they consumed a lot of tape. We know how many boxes they ship out of there. Is it really timing or did you just lose and you haven't been doing the proper types of follow up? So that could be part of the process in there too.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: Right now, a lot of people can follow this process, but obviously there's competitive advantages or there's people. There's reasons certain sales people get the orders most of the time, and those that don't is following the same process. And I think there are a few reasons that the same people tend to win over and over and over again.
And I think one of those being the first to respond and just responding with urgency. And I know that's how in the beginning of when I started the company and still now, I mean, that's how I won majority of the business when I was new and didn't have a lot to show for it or a lot of company history. I was just first to respond, always, and first to stay on it. It was urgent. It didn't matter what time the request was coming in or what the hours were, I was first to respond. And I still really try to carry that philosophy personally, but inside of our company. So I think that urgency and just showing people that with what they're asking for matters, it's important. It's a priority. Like when I hear someone say, sorry, I can't like basically apologizing for being slow to respond because they were busy, I immediately, I mean, I am so turned off by that, because when you say you're busy or you have a lot going on or you're slammed or something's crazy as a reason why you were slow to respond, all it suggests is that what someone is asking you is not a priority. It's not that important. So I, and we have this discussion inside of my team. Like that is never, ever, ever something you say to a customer or prospect. And one of the things we also talk about is, listen, you might not have an immediate response to whatever this person is asking, but you can acknowledge it right away and you can say, got it on it, be right back immediately. And that makes all the difference in the world.
[00:24:42] Speaker A: Well, especially, you know, we talk about, you know, the differentiators, and we made it very clear in this podcast and a lot of conversations that we've had is that, you know, a lot of ticklers Tagler's construction success, right. Has been, has been in and around the differentiator. That is speed to reply. And I think, you know, depending on what you're selling, I mean, something I learned very early in my career that was very helpful was the difference between products and services and emotional and non emotional products and services are pretty simple, right? But we sell products. If I was selling life insurance, that would be a service, right. There's, there's one that everyone's very familiar with, but the one that I didn't really? And I didn't get this right when I was sitting in the class as a much younger salesperson, it was Mick, do you know the difference between an emotional and a non emotional sale? And I didn't. And the simple answer was, it's whether the person is spending their own money or they're spending someone else's money. So in the life insurance example, that is an emotional service. What I'm selling and what you're selling are non emotional products, right. They are their products and they're spending someone else's money.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: That's why I was very intentional in getting into commercial construction versus residential, right?
[00:25:56] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: Emotional versus. Not emotional.
[00:25:59] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think when you know, and then if you throw in the technical difficulty, if you will, of the product, meaning if it's more commoditized in nature, then that's gonna have a lot of situations where you might be jumping over the entire sales process. You might just be quoting in those situations. I know lumber two by four, for example, could be that as a commodity product, where you would jump over, you've already created the relationship. There's no presentation to make. How much am I going to pay for a two by four by twelve? It's that simple.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Or it's first to respond, we need the order. And who's going to respond first?
[00:26:33] Speaker A: I need price and availability.
And if they're asking for availability, it's not because they have time to wait for it. And that's where the differentiator, in that your two by four looks exactly like everybody else's. I know that. And the differentiator is what you do to bundle around it. Speed, pleasantness, accuracy, making the customer's life easier. From a project management perspective, all services that I've watched your team provide for. Sure.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And making it, as we, as we always say, frictionless. You know, the easier you can make it for your customers, the more sales you will get. We know plenty of people, and some come to immediate mind where, you know, it's going to be, I have vendors, it's going to be an hour conversation before I can even start to get pricing. I also have a lot of vendors where I talk to them for 30 seconds and I've got a quote back in five minutes. And it's the difference between the people that are just frictionless. It's just the details, man. And we're going to get you the pricing versus the people that overcomplicate things. And sometimes I think there are people in sales that overcomplicate the process to make it look like they are smarter and needed in the process, when really they are just making it harder and more complicated. And I avoid those people at all costs. I do not buy from them.
[00:27:57] Speaker A: Yeah, I think Amazon has retrained the world. I mean, that's something that definitely in the packaging world, we fight it in any number of spots. But they've worked really hard on frustration free. Packaging is a term that everybody uses. But other companies and big, like Amazon Big, have also reset expectations. That frictionless thing is actually a Jeff Bezos comment. He wants to make it frictionless. And now you have people that are having these type of frictionless experiences in their personal lives when they're buying whatever they're buying from Amazon. And that absolutely, positively, even though they're buying an emotional product from Amazon, it's their own money that absolutely carries over into the rest of their life. And that frictionless piece where I think that's about reading the room.
You and your team are very intentional about knowing your value proposition, right? Yes. Accuracy is important. I can't quote you as 14 footer when you need a twelve, but at the same time too, it is still a two by four. Right. And it's rather easily explained. The whole world's pretty familiar with it. So the differentiator becomes, you know, speed, maybe pleasantness, whatever. It could be your terms and conditions.
But you read the room and you know that, you know, Joe Smith just wants a number, you know, and Joe just, he's got to get the order off of his desk and he's got to be cost competitive and cost effective. He's had people that he works for, too. But in general, he wants to do the deal. And that's part of the challenge is understanding your audience and what they consider value proposition. Overcomplicating a two by four for someone like that would be excruciating. Just like it is for you.
[00:29:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And I don't want to get there be, I don't want there to be a misunderstanding that there are details lost in that process. Because I think sweating the details I don't think I know is very important. If you're going to be a great salesperson, you are sweating all of the details. But there's a difference between knowing them all and sweating them all and over sharing them all with your customer. When you do that, a lot of times all you do is complicate the process more or confuse your customer who simply doesn't need to know all those details. You, Mick Arnold, as the salesperson. Yes. You should know all those details. But you don't have to share all those details. So sweat the details personally as a salesperson, but don't over share with your customers. Share just enough that makes them comfortable and feel good about the order or whatever the transaction is or could be.
And you have to know what that balance and line is.
[00:30:39] Speaker A: I think it's about de risking.
That's a word that we use a lot.
Need to be able to share enough information so that your prospect or customer, whomever it is, depending on how deep you are in your relationship, knows enough or is comfortable enough that you have de risked the process. And listen, that comes over time, too. If you're on transaction 400 with Joe Smith, you're going to be communicating less info. Less info. You will build yourself up into a certain type of salesperson. We're going to talk about the different types as well.
You will have earned that trust where Joe's pretty comfortable that despite not exchanging a tremendous number of words, he's going to get or she's going to get what they want on the job site. It's going to be right thing, right place, right time. And, man, that's when you've reached an amazing spot where you could execute to that level in the most efficient possible way.
[00:31:41] Speaker B: Yeah. And another really important part of the process is the honesty piece.
It's just being brutally honest because even though a lot of times that includes not giving your customer the response or the help they may need, it could be, I don't know where. This is not up our alley. It does garner and generate trust.
And I think I heard, you know, I heard Alex Hormozi, his approach was, this is why this is good for you. This is why this is good for me. This is why this is potentially bad for you. And this is why it's potentially bad for, for me. And leaving all the cards on the table and being like, yeah, this is what I get out of it. And just an approach like that, just being super honest, laying all the cards on the table, take it or leave it. And there's no better way to generate trust between you and your customers when you do that because they can count on you to give them the truth all the time.
[00:32:42] Speaker A: Right? Yeah. And I think that word, you know, in the middle of the sales process is that word present. I don't want to mistake the fact that it doesn't have to be a gizmo or a thing. Right. Part of that is you. Right. And you're building that cred and you're building that trust. And part of it is through subject matter expertise, which is really technical and nutsy boltsy, but it's also about how you show up. And I think what you just articulated about Alex Ramozi and a worldview type look is here's how I'm showing up to our relationship, and here's what you can expect from me, because if we can't align around it, one of us is going to be pissed and you end up with a bad sale, which we started the conversation with. If you ended up with a bad sale because you didn't follow the process, and in this moment, part of that process would have been the presentation and getting it right and being thorough with it, not just on product, but on you and how you show up as a salesperson and what your expectations are, because it's important that you as a salesperson have and tell the prospect what they are. You can't just sit there with the prospect being the only important person in the room because the two of you have got to be happy with the relationship, or one of you is going to lead it and it's going to suck and it will ultimately fail, and then you'll both go start over somewhere else when you really should never have been together in the first place.
[00:34:08] Speaker B: Yes, and I have a two, way more than two, but off the top of my head, two prime examples of exactly this. We just recently, someone asked us for a bunch of material. We can get it, we can source it, we have the manufacturer partnerships, but it's not our bread and butter, and we're not going to be the most competitive. And I straight up said, we can get this for you. We will not be the most competitive. And if you need the most competitive pricing, go ask XYZ. And they said, that's great. Thank you. We're already buying material from you, and we prefer to buy from you. Very honest. Sometimes we'll get small ass. Today I got a very small ass for certain kinds of tape. I said, you know what? You're gonna be way better off just having your guys go to Home Depot and pick it up. Could I have got, could I have placed that order and stuck on a crazy margin? Of course, but it's not good for us if it's not good for the customer. So just, just things like that. And I do it constantly, all the time.
[00:35:10] Speaker A: Yeah. Being an information source is a huge value, and that is part of the presentation that I'll make, which I can because I've got 30 years in the business where I'll say, hey, listen, if somehow it's not us. After 91 years, we know who it is and I'm happy to send you in that direction. They're certainly not going to be compet, they're not going to be competing with me. If they were, I would have said yes. So that information source, and it's interesting, too, because some people will come back in that Home Depot example that you just gave and said, you know what, I know that I could get this duct tape at Home Depot, but I don't have time for my guys to do it. I just need it on the job site and I trust you to do it. And you'd say, that's great. If that value prop is there for you and you will pay another dollar, roll, pick something, then. Awesome. I'm happy to sell it to you, but my job is to tell you what the other options are in that moment.
And meanwhile, you're just building. And even if they go to buy the tape from Home Depot, you're a much more reliable, credible source going forward because of the honesty.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: That's right. And after, for my first example, when I said, listen, we can get you this product, it was a lot of product, but we're not going to be the most competitive. That was the first time we ever interacted with that particular customer. And the next email was, hey, we'd really like to start doing more business with you. Can we set up a meeting, like, like immediately?
[00:36:25] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:25] Speaker B: So even though we basically told them we're not your guy for this project that you're looking at. So, very interesting. And I think the proof was in the pudding right there with that response.
[00:36:35] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So, you know, I don't think you have to be everything to everyone. Matter of fact, you're probably doing everyone a disservice if you attempt to that. Right. I mean, it's gonna have added costs for your organization. There may or may not be any profitability left. And if you blow it, you're done for good. Right. If you step too far outside of your lane, then you could be that. You could wreck that relationship forever and never actually get a chance to compete and service on what is truly your wheelhouse.
[00:37:01] Speaker B: Sure.
So let's talk about, I do want to talk about the importance of face to face interaction. And I heard someone on a podcast, they had built a business, can't remember what it was, and they were talking about in the beginning, they always, even when they didn't have the money, when they were starting up, they always took the flight. They spent the money for the flight with the money. They didn't have to go meet that person face to face. And I think there's so much value in the 3d interaction versus two d. I really do think it makes all the difference in the world in generating those relationships that leads to business and then ultimately repeat business.
So I think that's pretty well known. I don't think that's anything. I mean, maybe something worth touching on. But what I really wanted to get into is where do you think we are with the act of cold calling? Because in that example I gave, it was very measured. Set appointment. We're flying. We have this meeting. And that's how I approach. If we're going to meet, it's going to be something that scheduled. But we still get many people that come into our office cold calling a lot.
[00:38:17] Speaker A: Yeah. What a lost art. So I have a couple.
[00:38:20] Speaker B: So you think it's an art? You believe in it still?
[00:38:23] Speaker A: I do. I want to back up to that piece. I thought you said something really important about the 3d world.
The pandemic was so disruptive as related to people being around people. There are times now, and I'm also going to throw in a little bit of age because I, when I'm working with younger engineers, like, that's just one that I really. That I recognize overtly.
The idea that I would come on site is a little bit unusual. It's almost like you're talking about, well, you're actually willing to come here and see this process. And I'm thinking, man, I've qualified this so much for us to have a chance to actually get to the next step. I have to come on site, I have to see it. I can't look at another drawing. I can't look at another picture. I can't look at another video. I actually have to come in and experience your operation and take it in for myself. Because what I'm getting now is your view, or I'm getting a myopic look because it is truly just a camera lens. It's as myopic as it gets. And I'm. And I'm having to reinstill that in some people. That, yes, coming into the building and looking at it is a thing. It's absolutely a thing. Yes. And yeah, I completely believe in. In cold calling now.
I believe you have to be because the whole part of this early process is qualifying. We haven't hit on that word. I don't know we've hit on that word exactly yet. But the idea when you talk about the 3d, if you're through identify and you're through present and someone's willing to actually let you in the building, then yeah. It might require a presentation for us to be across the table from each other.
[00:40:03] Speaker B: Can it be scheduled?
[00:40:05] Speaker A: Oh no. So I'm not talking about the cold call, I'm just talking about that. Right. But I think the cold call is a little bit different or when it's appropriate. So let's just say I'm trying to get you on the phone. And I know I have definitely identified that you are the decision maker or a very heavy influencer. You must be involved in the process for whatever reason. And I've emailed you and I've called you and I'm just getting no response whatsoever. I'm not sure I would get in the car and drive just to your building, but certainly if I'm out in the field and you're in an area that I have other prospects or other customers in, I'm going to stop in at some point, I'm going to knock on a door, I'm going to make a cold call and attempt to get in that way. This is all part of that penetrate process because I'm trying to get in to present to you and I can't sell you anything if you and I never get in the same space together. I don't mean physically, right. We could do this over the phone for sure. But if that, if it shows that that's not being effective or that's not working, then absolutely, positively, when appropriate, in the lowest cost way. And I just mean cost efficient. I don't mean cost cheap, which is what you were talking about, I think too. Absolutely. I'm going to park my car and I'm going to walk up to the front door. Challenging. In today's world, I might find it unmanned. I might find it locked. I might have a telephone that I have to pick up. I mean, there's not as many situations where there's a very nice person at the front desk who says, Matt, how may I help you?
A lot of times it is a phone or a list or a something and you might be leaving a document of some kind in the front office for the person.
So, no, I think done correctly and with a lot of thought and intentionality, I think cold calling is still absolutely a critical part of the sales process.
[00:41:58] Speaker B: It's interesting because I don't, and in fact, I hate it.
I will say on again, we don't do a lot of it. We don't really do any of it right now. And that could change that could change when we're not continually getting the referral business or whatever changes in our business or industry.
But when I get cold calls, all I feel is disrupted, and it annoys me, and that's genuinely how I feel about it. But I will say I don't want to just call it out as an annoyance and not propose a solution. And this is probably how I should have answered your question the first time when you said, how did you penetrate? I think one great way to be able to penetrate is to find some type of. And a lot of times it's going to be in the way of a person, a mutual connection. And you could say, hey, mick, I know that you know Tommy well, and I've been trying to connect with Tommy. I cannot get a hold of the guy. I can't. And here's what I have to offer them. Is there a way you could make an introduction, or would you mind if I brought you into the conversation as a mutual point of contact where, you know, we can connect upon that point? And I think that's a really great way to break in or even asking somebody, hey, would you mind making a warm intro for me?
[00:43:21] Speaker A: Yeah, referral.
[00:43:24] Speaker B: But ask. Because I also get on the other end of the spectrum. I have many people who connect me with people without asking, when I had no interest in being connected with that person, which is a huge no no. Don't do that.
[00:43:36] Speaker A: Yeah. And also, too. And I had one of those today. Funny you should bring that up. And unfortunately, in my role these days, the vast majority of the time, I'm not the person that they want to talk to.
[00:43:48] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:43:48] Speaker A: And depending on who it is, you know, I might nudge them onto my teammate. Right. One of my five executives is responsible for it, there's no question. Right. Because collectively, they handle everything in the entire company. But it does puts me in a tough spot. I mean, I don't know this person, and now I'm going to.
I'm going to. To reply forward to them, and I know my teammate feels inclined to take this meeting or something just by virtue of it coming from me. So I'm letting that person trade on my equity, and I don't know them at all. And that's the part that becomes a little bit frustrating.
[00:44:25] Speaker B: And to further on that point, if that happens to me, if somebody that I know connects me with somebody that I don't want to be connected with without my sent, I will typically say, thank you so much, and then send a subsequent email to that person, the new person. Just say, hey, really appreciate it. We're not looking for. We don't have a need for your service or product at this time. Should that change, if that need arises. Well, you know, we're keeping your contact on file instead of putting a teammate in any position where they feel obligated.
[00:44:56] Speaker A: Right. Or if you loved it. Right. If it was something that was breakthrough, then you would get on. You would let them tread it on your equity. I think one of the tactics our sales team uses is in asking for that referral. Can you think of anybody that could benefit from the help I provided to you? Something like that. And the danger is that you don't know if the person you're talking to is good at it or not. I think I get the one I got today. Very well intended, but it was one of those out of nowhere McMijohn and John sells temporary services. And I'm going, oh, my God, I can't stand temporary services. You know that. And I definitely don't make those choices. And b, we have a very organic hiring process. We are going to be going to the market on our own. So the referral part is great, but I still do think, when appropriate, these are all just tools in the toolbox to get to present, whether it's networking. That piece you talked about. We talked about networking.
[00:45:54] Speaker B: So let me add to that as a way to penetrate, in addition to what I just said, I would go further than saying networking, because I think networking is often not very valuable or productive. I think you go shake, like you said, shake a lot of hands. Don't ask for orders. Don't get anything out of it. But there are particular groups that I think it's really just being very particular about the networking you join or the groups. I think one local. They're not just local. I think they're national.
But I think accelerant, they do a really, really good job at this. That is a connection group, if you want to make connections. And they do exactly what I'm talking about. They have meetings with 20 people within the same industry. And I sit down and I say, listen, I have been trying to get in touch with X Company, Y Company, Z company, and usually someone in that room has at least one connection to that company. And then we make you say, I know Company X, and I can get you in the door, say, great, how do we do this? So it's creating those warm intros. And I think that strategy that accelerant does is very, very valuable. I think that's worth the time. I don't think a lot of other networking organizations are.
[00:47:10] Speaker A: Well, yeah, Accelerant's done a great job. And shout out to Rob, who's one of our favorites, Rob McGrain.
They created a community. I think that they take it one step further. A lot of these networking events are just cocktail parties that are billed as networking events. I also do think too, though, one of the things going back to more, little more old school sales, and unfortunately, it's old school because it shouldn't be, is call prep. And part of call preparation is, what am I closing for? What is the goal? And you'd say, well, well, that's crazy. Everything in the world I do, I establish a goal. Not salespeople. Salespeople are happy to just go into a building and never actually have a stated goal. And the same thing can happen in those networking events. You know, what would it be? I'd like to meet three people that are buying the things that I'm selling. And what am I going to do if I do that? I'm going to ask to come and see them. What am I closing for? Right. It may not be the ultimate close. I'm not talking about the close after a propose. I'm talking about what am I closing for in this moment? Could be that, you know, it's not a networking event. I'm going in to present for the first time. Because I did penetrate and I have a meeting with Britt. What am I closing for? I'd love to get a plant tour. That's what I'd love to do, is get in. I'd love to get out of the conference room. And I'd love to close for the plant tour. And given the opportunity to get deeper into the sales process, I will pursue. But if it's plant tour today, and we agree on some things to work on. So I'm heading towards propose. I would consider that a win too. But so many salespeople, young, new, whatever, sloppy, lazy. Don't actually take the time to define what the close in that part of the process looks like. I'm not mistaking this with the ultimate win or lose clothes. I just mean what I'm trying to do to get onto the next step in the process.
[00:48:56] Speaker B: Right? Yes, absolutely.
[00:48:58] Speaker A: Because a number of people will be talking about that stereotypical bd person. Show up, shake hands, kiss babies, drink drinks, go home, zero. Anything.
[00:49:05] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:49:07] Speaker A: Or a pocket full of business cards.
And then when they reach out to those 3510 business cards, they get no response. Cause they didn't actually do anything with the time that they spent in front of that person. That's the crazy part. You didn't do anything inspirational, right?
[00:49:22] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, do you have anything else to add? I think that could be a great ending point, talking about that final close.
[00:49:30] Speaker A: Just that I find a lot of newer salespeople today passive. That's one of the words we didn't hit on. And I'm not saying that you have to be an aggressive jerk. Right. Or this now or never approach.
[00:49:43] Speaker B: I actually have written down here, pleasant persistence. Yeah, that's how I like to approach it.
[00:49:48] Speaker A: That's a great term. But I also think there's nothing wrong with making it clear that you get paid by the order, not by the hour. As a salesperson, that's a really important idea that actually have to sell things for my family to eat. This is my chosen profession. Just like your job is to make widgets, my job is to sell you the tape, to close the widget box. And I'm going to keep doing this. And I experience a lot of salespeople and at times inside of our organization too, as a little too passive. I'm not saying you've got to be an overbearing jerk, but I think it's okay to be very insistent and intentional about what the goal here is. My goal is to sell you tape, to close your widget boxes, and that's what I intend to do. So that passive piece is the only thing I would add is, I don't know, I just think in general, there's a little bit at times too much political correctness in spots. And I'm not saying you have to be an overbearing jerk, but I think it's okay to have that persistence that you're talking about. Certainly be nice about it, but I think it's okay to be intentional too.
[00:50:51] Speaker B: I agree. So let's run through just quickly. In summary, what we ran through, how to crush sales. One, be aware of and intentional about the process. The five steps of the process that.
[00:51:04] Speaker A: You like are, oh, ours are, identify, penetrate, present, propose, close, boom, be first.
[00:51:12] Speaker B: To respond, and urgent, ask for the freaking order, follow up, pleasant persistence, sweat the details. But don't overshare. Don't confuse your customers. The value in 3D, making the trip, you know, getting face to face with that person, brutal honesty, which will then lead to trusted relationships. Be a tenacious prospector and did I miss anything?
[00:51:43] Speaker A: No, I don't think you did. And I think that 3d piece is, you know, we talked.
[00:51:47] Speaker B: Oh, the warm intros.
[00:51:48] Speaker A: I inserted the word qualify in there is that you should be qualifying the entire time, right?
You should be qualifying your prospect while they're qualifying you. There is this dance of sorts that is going on where you're going to figure out if you can do business together and you should be qualifying the prospect at the same time. And they might not. Every prospect might not be for you, right? You may not. Well, there are some customers that are better served on your competitor's customer list because they are a resource waster or whatever it is. So you're always going through that qualifying process, and you should be looking for your prospects to check certain boxes while they're looking for you to check certain boxes.
[00:52:28] Speaker B: That makes a lot of sense. And I will close with saying I can assure you if you are in sales and you implement even some of these tools and strategies, you will overnight improve the amount of sales you do.
[00:52:43] Speaker A: Without questions.
[00:52:44] Speaker B: No question.
[00:52:44] Speaker A: No. These are time tested tactics, regardless of digital. Not digital. Mano e mano across the table.
It's the process and somehow that has gotten lost along the way. Just follow the process. As always, thank you for watching. Love and business.
A little bit of a different day for us today. When we awakened, we learned that a container ship had taken down the Francis Scott key bridge, which is right outside of our park here, just to our south. We got the news at 04:00 a.m. We sprung out of bed, grabbed some hats and came to work just to make sure that all of our teammates know what to do. We didn't know what it was going to mean from a traffic perspective, so he got us in hats today because we jumped right to action.
[00:53:27] Speaker B: Yes. And our hearts go out to everyone involved in the situation.
I will leave you with one last note which we always ask if you found our content valuable on how to crush sales. There's going to be a lot more content put out that is similar. Please subscribe. That is the way you will get notifications when that content hits the streets.
[00:53:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Let us know you love it. Subscribe, subscribe, subscribe.
[00:53:49] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:53:49] Speaker A: It's that simple. Thank you.
Welcome to Ace proudly touch for the superstars tonight.
[00:53:59] Speaker B: Tonight, which guest?
[00:54:01] Speaker A: Incredible, credible.
