Episode Transcript
[00:00:05] Speaker A: Welcome to Wayne Scrobby talks for the Superstars.
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Welcome to the Love of Business podcast. My name is Britt Arnold. I am president of Tagler Construction and Supply.
[00:00:16] Speaker A: And I'm Mick Arnold, president of Arnold Packaging and Arnold Automation.
[00:00:21] Speaker B: Now for those of you who are not subscribed, which is the majority, please take a second and push that subscribe button on our YouTube channel. It means a lot to us. If you're listening, if you like the content, subscribe, please. Only favor we will ever ask.
[00:00:40] Speaker A: Yes, and that brings us to our topic for the day. So if you've been following along, we've been doing a multi part series on hiring which was very beneficial. I mean both of us have been actually in the moment working through the process. I think we've identified our candidates. So we've been doing this while we've been sharing it and hopefully we gave you some great tips along the way. But now we come to the point where somehow you recognize that you've missed and you have to let someone go from the organization. I thought it would be great if we would share the events leading up to it. There's a lot of different types of performers inside the company. Some are more quantitative in nature, maybe salespeople that would have numbers to hit. It's a little more objective versus some subjective performers and how you got here and some tools and tactics. Some things that we've learned to try to manage the process and make it as productive as it can be. Even though it's a really hard time and it can be very uncomfortable, it can be really, really awkward and challenging for some people. It's one of the harder things you'll ever do as an entrepreneur or a business owner is have to make the really hard choice to remove somebody from your organization.
[00:01:56] Speaker B: Yeah. We call this the firing episode.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: That was a very nice way of me saying all that up to avoid the word firing.
[00:02:01] Speaker B: I know, I'm the softer of us. Remember it was a little dance, a long dance.
[00:02:09] Speaker A: No, no, you really, really. I don't know if it's working out.
[00:02:12] Speaker B: Okay, so where would you like to begin?
[00:02:17] Speaker A: Well, look, I mean, I think it starts with someone is not, is not living up to expectations. Right. I mean, whatever, whatever that would mean depending on the role that you're, you're talking about. But you realize that one of your teammates is, is not doing what they're supposed to be doing. And, and I mean, I can go ahead and start, you know, I mean, I know what we do here and I think maybe, maybe we're, we're we'll set the, the expectation that you've done a good job in the hiring process of, of letting the, the employee or your team member know what is expected of them.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: So I think that's the most important thing is to clarify when you're hiring very clearly verbally, end on paper what the expectation.
[00:03:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. So we didn't, we didn't shoot one on onboarding. Right. So that'll be our, that'll be our tribute to onboarding. Is that in that process and certainly all the way up through the interview process. Right. I mean you've created a job description we talked about. You've done any number of things to make sure that you are auditioning and aligning. Because those are the two ideas that we really hit on in those first two episodes is that, you know, you're auditioning the candidate, they should be auditioning you back. It should have a really 50, 50 feel. Especially if you're interview executive candidates or more senior candidates. They should be testing the organization just as hard as you're testing them for alignment. So let's give it the benefit of the doubt that through that process and continuing on through the onboarding process. We talked about the draft letter that should have a lot of expectations laced into it, that we've done a good job of setting expectations and at some point, some point in the future, that person just isn't meeting those expectations anymore. Yeah.
[00:04:03] Speaker B: And certainly you write out the job role and the expectations very clearly for the reason of setting that person up for success. Not thinking about, well, if we go to fire one day, that's not top of mind. But it is the, you know, the, it is important to have that if worst case scenario that happens because you can always, you want to have something to very clearly refer back to. We had this conversation, our expectations were aligned. So I thought we talked about it. But again, you don't, you don't go. I want to make it clear like that's not for. So if we go to fire, we can, we can refer to it. It's to set the person up for success who you're hiring. But it is something that is a useful tool if you get to the firing.
[00:04:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's, that's just, that's just fairness. It's not like a typical contract where the first page describes everything if it goes well and the other 610 pages describes what happens if the, if the relationship comes undone.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: Right.
[00:05:04] Speaker A: In some fashion. So just simply in fairness, how else would you do it? Right. I mean it wouldn't even be reasonable to bring somebody into your organization if you haven't clearly set expectations and in writing. But you never do it with this thing over your shoulder. If you were doing it or you were showing up with the best of intentions, it wouldn't be to create this gotcha document on the backside anticipating the person failing. If you're thinking that way, then probably shouldn't have been moving forward with the hire in the first place. You don't, you don't really show up that way.
But. So let's just set up. Let's, let's do this in a, let's do this in a hypothetical type where we've, we've identified someone's not performing up to standards. And I think let's, you know, I think the sales side or some of the more metric based performers inside of a company are a little cleaner. You know, I mean if you're in sales and you have a quota, for example, and you're not meeting it, certainly your sales manager would be talking to you and you'd be you, you'd know. Right. Because there's very few things about a sales goal or forecast that are nebulous. They are very, very clearly defined and very objective. So you might be having conversations with your sales manager or your leader and they might be coaching you through some of the challenges that you're having. Whatever it is that's happening that's keeping you from closing the sales, you've agreed that you'll close, I think the other side for more non metric performers. And you'd like to hope that there are metrics woven in, in each role in some fashion. Some roles are easier than the other. But you've, you've identified that that someone isn't living up to expectations. You define you defined when you agreed to get together.
[00:06:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And I will say for, I'll take my organization for example. We do not have any.
Although we're all in sales to some degree. It's, we don't, there's no actual sales person and we don't have metrics to hit in the way of. Okay, hit this revenue goal we don't have. There's no commission based employees. So it's a lot harder. And I'd like to think we have hard metrics but just if I'm being honest, we don't. Like you couldn't look at a single one of my employees be like what is the goal like the metric you're trying to meet. Nobody would be able to tell you. We all know what's expected of us and how we can be successful at doing our jobs. But it's really not metric based. So I'll be honest about that. Maybe it should be. But we've gone over many times how to do it and just haven't found something clean or fair in a way to do that. But we all very clearly know what our expectations are. And I think one thing we need to get into is. So while we're talking about, we have identified somebody that does not meet the expectations and is ultimately going to get fired. Who is we. Like for my organization, that's smaller. Typically I'm identifying that person personally. Maybe someone else is bringing it to my attention. But usually like I'm, I've already seen it where you could be a couple of people removed. So is it typically coming up through your executive team? Like, how does that communication work and who are you relying on to weed those people out?
[00:08:12] Speaker A: Yeah, so we do, I know we've talked about this. We do have a really great practice inside of our executive committee meeting where we have a slide. And I say just because we run through this PowerPoint, just to keep us on track. It's more like a roadmap, if you will. And it's, it's called teammates in need of support. And that's the really nice way of saying this list could have one foot out the door. And it's an opportunity for the executive team to identify people that are not doing the correct things in their role, whatever that might be. And the reason that we do it is so that we can have each other's backs. And I mean, if we know that Mickey is struggling to perform, then our radar would be up a little bit and we might be looking to help Mick. I mean, that's why we do call it in need of support. Because if, if Kevin calls out, let's just say an engineer who's struggling for whatever reason, and then he names on, I will go out of my way or make it a pointed effort to help. I might walk. It might be as simple as I might walk a little more slowly through the engineering department and listen to the conversations that are going on. Given the opportunity to have a conversation and I'm close with everybody in the company just like you are, regardless of size. I mean, I, I know everyone here quite well. It, it might be an opportunity, or if an opportunity presents, I might pull that person aside and, and have a conversation with them. And it might not say, hey, your name's on the board in the corner office. It would be, how's Everything going, you know, tell me about some. Some wins that you've had recently. Tell me about some struggles. Are you stuck on anything? Tell me about some constraints that. That might be holding you back from where you think you can go. So I might have a conversation along those lines. But the answer is that at least I don't know that some of our hourly or production type employees would end up there. They would generally be managed by that team directly, but certainly everybody in the front of the building, if you will, and all of the direct. So that would be the salespeople, you know, all of my direct reports would be. Could be putting a name on that board and calling it out for that exact reason or for that very reason. So that's how it would get to me if I, If I were to know about it ahead of time. And I, And I usually would. I usually would. It wouldn't. I wouldn't walk in and say someone from this department that I know was let go without warning. It would. It would be on the board and we would start to talk about it. Here's the other thing too. It might be that there's a coaching opportunity that one of us identifies that one of the executive team members doesn't. Oh, you know, I had a similar direct report that was struggling with the same thing, and I found out that they were having a problem with. Turns out they were having a problem at home. So it's also an opportunity for us to help coach each other. And this is all for the firing topic, but more things that are very useful. It's also an opportunity for us to potentially coach each other, to coach that teammate to get them back on, because it's so much better to save that person. You know, if you can identify the root cause of the challenge and you can help them through it, considering what could have been a massive time investment in that person, could have been here for years or whatever, you'd love to identify it and coach them through it before you'd ever send them away from the organization.
[00:11:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'm sure a lot of people can relate to what you're saying. And then also from my standpoint, like a smaller business, although getting bigger or have two more hires coming on.
We. It's. It's really obvious typically to everybody and it just someone just, they. Maybe they're not performing, but a lot of times, like they just aren't fitting in with the team and it's just like we really don't even have to talk about it. Everybody feels it. And part of that goes Back to, because the firing and hiring process are so tightly aligned is that when we're hiring it's such a tight knit team that we always like we have to hire the right human. The experience, all of that is very important. But like they have to really fit in personality wise with our team because we work so closely together that if you just have one person that really doesn't fit in with the team, it's going to make a big difference on such a lean team. So because of that hiring process, when usually getting it right when we don't. It's obvious.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think we could spend another whole episode on, on what Mrs. Look like or how you don't identify that on the front end and you end up with a false start or you end up with someone eight months or nine months down the road, which is the worst time because you're very invested at that moment, who then fails out of the organization, which is, which is horrible. It's, it's about as bad as it gets. And I'll tell you one thing that's been very beneficial. And you can speak to your side because I know you have the same practice. I want to say just two or three years ago, so we're a 91 year old company and it was only a few years ago now I believe that we sat down as an, as an executive team and we identified our values. You know, we, we sat in a room together for the better part of a day and we agreed on seven words that describe and illustrate our values and those are introduced. So if you haven't done it, I'm a big proponent of it. And I, and I've never really been a big mission guy, you know, where you walk into certain lobbies and it's tattooed all over the place. But this, this approach and this nugget called values has been so instrumental in helping in the process. So I'll just, I'll name a couple.
Dedication. Team first. Integrity. Respect. So there's just a couple of the words that are there. We provide them to candidates very, very early in the process. I mean they are socialized to candidates very early. I would say, you know our, we talked about our interview process but somewhere in that phase two, definitely before they come on site, they have seen those seven words and I have counseled, if I'm, if I'm running the interview process, I have counseled them to be very aware of those words. They should expect to hear them again. They should expect to have to speak to them. And if any one of those words is appalling or not aligned, they should remove themselves from the process immediately because they are non negotiable.
[00:14:30] Speaker B: Yes.
And we went through the same. Well, you helped us go through that same experiment and we came up with our values, which, again, being honest, we've done absolutely nothing with thus far though I have seen. And prior to that I just thought they were stupid. I've touched on this before in a podcast, but it's like, you know, you said a mission statement, you walk into an office and it's a mission statement and you look at it and you never look at it again. And in one ear and out the other.
So I think the message here is it's the way you actually integrate and implement those values. It's not just creating them and it's not what they mean. It's how you implement them on a daily, weekly, monthly basis. Like for us, we worked really hard to come up with seven words that I think that I know because our team worked very hard with you on creating them. They really reflect what our values are. However, we have done nothing with them. So they're useless at this point. Until we actually integrate them into our daily practices here, they're not going to mean much. So I think you guys have done a really good job of standing up yourselves and everybody else against them consistently. And that's something. A point that we want to get. Get to. But I think that more than just creating those values is the execution piece.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: Yeah. And where they really come in handy because as I open this episode with, that's a really tough time. You know, it's a very uncomfortable thing to have to call a teammate and start this process where you're identifying to them that they are not meeting expectations. And that list of values, for example, really, it takes it out of being personal. Right. It's this list of values that we agreed were non negotiable. And then you're able to call on them. You know, it would be. And what you're referring to then also too is the choices that they're making or the behaviors that they're exhibiting. Right. You can really focus in on it that way where it becomes a lot less personal. You know, it's.
And you can make sure that in that moment, that teammate who's not performing has 100% ownership of it. That happens to be one of our values too. But, you know, you would say, you know, Brit, you, I've called you in today because you acted very inappropriately with another team member. You were yelling at Tommy, you know, and, and and as a manager, that's. Yeah, Tommy's kindly. We're always yelling at Tommy, Tommy, please save us. It's more like that, though, right? Their cries for help.
You know, your handling of that situation with Tommy was completely inappropriate. You know, we don't raise our voice around here. And actually it was disrespectful. And we agreed that respect was one of our values and that behavior is the opposite of that. So there's just a quick framing of how to use them, which puts the ownership of that choice or that behavior on. And then you can. And then you can walk it through. Right. I mean, you know, it goes into. On further, but that's a great one. The other thing, I will tell you that my manager, I've called our team out on, you know, we have a disciplinary process, and you should. If you don't have a defined. Especially if you live in the state of Maryland, which is a very challenging place to be an employer. It is riddled with litigation, potholes and hurdles. And you can just do something unknowingly or with the best intentions and get yourself into legal hot water because you, you, you know, you were zigging when the law said you should have been zagging and would never even occur to you. So you should have that process. But, you know, the first step in our process is a written verbal. So you're going to talk to the person about whatever that shortcoming is, but you're also going to make note of it. You're going to put it in their employee file. Right. You're going to document that piece. And I will tell you that I think a lot of times in my coaching and counseling of my directs, it's. I will say, did you. Did you give them a verbal warning? Did you sit them down in an environment that has some gravity to it, where clearly they know that something is wrong? Right. It's not in passing. And I would say usually that's after you've addressed it in passing. Hey, Britt, knock it off. Hey, Britt, knock it off. Hey, Britt, knock it off. And then finally, you know, you have a sit down or you might even go to the point of inviting your HR person in. I mean, that has a tremendous amount of gravity. And I find that sometimes our teammates are too slow to reach for that as a tool where they. I mean, I think you're doing your teammate justice by being transparent with them about the fact that their performance is not in keeping with what the expectations are. They might even, I mean, if, and at that point, if that doesn't get their attention, then you know exactly what you have. And if it does, that generally quietly goes away. Is it in the folder? Sure, sure. Are you ever going to pull it out? No, but the number of times I've listened to one of my teammates, you know, complain if you. Well, yeah, you know, Brit just doesn't seem to get it. Brit just doesn't seem to get it. I said, well, did you do her the favor of the formal sit down to pull the gravity to it to say, no, this is really a problem. And so much so that I'm going to do you the favor of being transparent and I'm taking you into the first step of disciplinary action.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: And that's what it looks like now for you guys.
You have so call it number first disciplinary action meeting number one. You know, ha. At what point are like, okay, we've had one now we've had a second discussion, now we've had a third. Like where how far along do you get before it's okay, we're having our final conversation.
[00:20:27] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's a little, a little bit different. Our salary track is a little bit different than our hourly track. So I'll just stay on the salary track for this one. You know, it's, I would say for, for me and my direct reports, it's generally three strikes. You know, three strikes is, is you're out. That's about right where you have that first one and you know, then you don't see any change in the behavior and you would, you would then bring it out that would ahead towards a written warning. That would be a. Listen, you know, we talked about this and clearly you didn't understand what I was saying. I've written this up in a format. I'm going to need you to sign this and we're going to, you know, put it in your folder and hope that now you understand what right looks like and you're going to be committed to making the changes in your behavior or your choices to stay on board because you're heading in a really rough direction at this point. And I would say if delivered that way and remember too, there's likely been a lot of conversation prior to even that that written the written verbal and then by the time you go to written, written and you've probably had four or five or six conversations, you know, maybe it's three into. All right, you know what, sit down. I'm going to do you the favor being transparent and we're going to talk about this in a very formal process way and then it's, oh, darn it, you still don't get it. Now we're going to do this in a really formal way, and you now have one entire foot out the door. And that next move would be. But here's the thing. I mean, at that point, you. You should have been so fair to that employee from a communication perspective and saying, and especially if you happen to be using the values as your tool in that moment. We've talked about this disrespectful behavior, yet you continue to yell at your. Your teammates. You know, you continue to raise your voice verbally, abuse, even at times taking it too far. And it's. It's not acceptable here. And there could have been some things along the way, like we would be counseling the point. Remember, this is a teammate that we loved enough to bring into our company. After we ran that through what is a rather exhaustive interviewing process that we've detailed in the last two episodes. And now somehow that person is off the reservation. We were aligned. We auditioned each other. We agreed that this was a marriage that was going to make a tremendous amount of sense. And now we're in this reprimand mode, which sucks. I mean, that's a total about face from the process that had you super excited that they were going to join your team, and now here you are. So at least in those moments, you should have been very fair and there shouldn't be any surprise. I have had situations where despite doing it that way and trying to be as transparent and fair as possible, because, remember, I have a very vested interest in that individual turning it around, you know, going back towards being the person that arrived that we were excited about having. So there could have been conversations about, you know, what's going on. Your behavior lately is explosive. It's not a you that I recognize. I've never known you to raise your voice, let alone be in my. Be in my office now twice for this behavior. And we talked about it. We agreed that respect was important, yet you continue to act disrespectfully. You know, you would have been going through this process where if that person is surprised by that point, then you clearly are misaligned, and they're going to be better off somewhere else outside of your organization.
[00:23:57] Speaker B: Yeah, and you touched on something that I think is important is the vested interests in someone when you hire them. I mean, the amount of financial resources, yes, but just time, energy, training that you invest in someone, like, as an employer, the last thing you want is to get it wrong. Like, it makes every it makes all the sense in the world to try to make sure their success from the, from the start or if not to turn them around and give them the opportunity and resources, whatever they need the support to be that person like you said that you need them to be. So I think there might be this misunderstanding that an employer is out to get me or it's easy to fire at least the smart employers that I know. That's the last thing you want. You are hiring people that you want on your team for eternity. For us, obviously that's not realistic for everybody that you hire. But I mean, that's the goal and that's, that's what we want. Anything other than that is very hard and challenging. And so I think that's something that, for employees to understand, like we are here to, to help and make sure that we do every. Exhaust every resource we can first before getting to the point where we have to say goodbye.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Yeah. And look, and I'll give you the numbers. As I mentioned, I. We're in the process of hiring a CFO and a plant manager. I reviewed 87 CFO candidate resumes and I reviewed 59 plant manager candidate resumes. So the behind the scenes investment in getting this right is massive. If you think that I am fired up about going back to that process because I missed, you're wrong. You're absolutely wrong. And to, to the point, it can actually go the other way where you become lazy or even a little complacent because you know, the pain and agony and someone actually might even get too many chances because you might catch me in a lazy moment or a fatigued moment or a distracted moment where it's like, oh man, you know, I'm ingrained in the sales part of the business right now and I don't want to leave that to go higher for an OPS role, something along those lines. So you might get additional leeway that you wouldn't get otherwise in those moments. And that's something I have to check myself on. Here's another thing that can happen too. And you can, we can speak to this. I happen to pick a rather evident, obvious behavior. Stop yelling at your coworkers. Let me tell you one that's even more difficult. There are times, and I have had it happen a number of times, we tend to move fast. I would like to think we tend to be one of the innovators in the space and trying to do things and attempt new things. And there are times that we outgrow teammates. And that means that the expectations that we used when we brought someone on board have changed because the company has grown, the demands have grown. What were our differentiators then Are there. But there might be more. They might be more complicated. Those dismounts might be harder to nail. And the person that came on board in that moment is no longer are able to keep up with the requirements of the company in this moment. And those are the ones that are really hard because they're not as easily defined as. Stop screaming at your coworkers. There's this gradual, gentle failure that plays out over time where you recognize that a teammate that you've worked with for a long time and love is somehow undershooting the bar. And it's not. And it's not necessarily them. It could be that the bar was raised and they're not able to raise their game in keeping with that bar. That's a hard one.
[00:27:47] Speaker B: That's by far the hardest. Because as you said, you love them, you've worked with them for a long time. And because you've worked with them a long time, they have shown you how loyal they are. So, I mean, I really, again, I haven't been in. I haven't only had my business for eight years. I haven't been in the position nearly as much as you, But I can tell you right now would struggle and do with that loyalty piece because nothing means more to me than somebody that's really loyal. But you, of course, you know, you have to walk the fine line of is this detrimental to the business and all the other employees by keeping this person on? Or is loyalty more important in that moment? And I think there's probably examples of both that you have, and it's person by person, situation by situation that you've really. I don't think there is one black or white answer. I think it's. You're looking at it moment by moment. But I know that I would. Even if I know in my heart of hearts that this person can no longer be with the organization, I will struggle with it because that loyalty piece is. It's. It's so important to me.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the danger becomes, because you're right and, and you know, our perception of loyalty as the people that are responsible for the business are different than our co workers. Right. I mean, they're. They're there. They love it. They came through the same process. They're just as committed. Another value of ours. They're just as committed. But at some point, if you can, if you continue to tolerate, if that's the right word, if you continue to tolerate that performance, which is clearly less than the expectations of everybody else, then you could have a different problem on your hands. As hard as that one is. You know, we have a saying around here. A lot a players want to play with a players. And as you continue to bring new people into the organization, of course you're trying to upgrade those positions and you're trying to get the very best players that you can all the time. And you might and that those are those moments where you could awaken and realize that someone that's been incredibly loyal in the organization for a while is no longer capable of running at the pace of some players that have increased their game along the way or some new players that have come in and been hired to this new standard and then they stick out for those reasons performance wise. And like, you know, our values aren't necessarily about performance doing the job. They're, they're, they have a very cultural feel to them that would have you missing if you're not committed or if you don't value the team first or if you are disrespectful or if you are, if you lack integrity, things that would completely stick out. Then there's the performance aspect where you're just not executing the job which could look like quality problems for you. It could look like missed bids or proposals. It could look like poor follow up on problematic jobs, things that would stick out. I mean, I think what you were saying is, well, there's not a lot of metrics in general. Everybody just needs to get their done and that's hard to define but everybody in the group knows what it looks like.
[00:30:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And again with a smaller team it's very, very obvious. And for a project manager it's like, well, are your customers continuing to come back for business? Are we getting the repeat business? Are we getting referrals? That's a big metric.
But yeah, that loyalty piece, man. And I think there is a. I don't necessarily think firing is always the first option. It might be. Well, is there another position, might be a position move that we could make to keep this person here and, and keep them successful and everybody around them successful? Maybe not, but I, I certainly think that would be my first, that would be my first move to look at that.
[00:31:28] Speaker A: Yeah. I will tell you when that's happened to us a couple times along the way, there are times when we have promoted internal where we, and that can be, that can be a little bit of a danger as well where we tried to promote internally which would have a Doing the right thing feel to it where you'd want, you'd want to be able to promote. You know, Brit has done an amazing job. She deserves the opportunity to step up into this role which has extra compensation, which means a better life for her family. She has earned this opportunity and could be that, you know, you've, it turns out it didn't work out, you know, and it's as simple as it was just a square peg, round hole moment. And now you've got to figure out what to do. I mean, do you have the ability to walk it back? Do you have the ability to slide them laterally in some fashion? And that can be really tricky. Sometimes it works and I have pulled it off successfully in spots.
But other times the only solution is to move the person out of the organization, which sucks because is, because you got it wrong too.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it would rarely work. I think usually it would unfortunately be that. But okay, going back to when you're having the write ups, we'll call it, but those just initial conversations, hey, pointing out what's not working, what. Those conversations you, you identify, you talk about the issue, the problem, but then there's got to be some resolution or let's work to resolve this. And a lot of times Those are called PIPs or poor, you know, improvement plans for that person.
How do you lay that out? What does that look like? Is it. And then also I want to get to. How do you evaluate it? So it's like we're going to come back to this in 30 days, lay that process out to us.
[00:33:13] Speaker A: Yeah, so we, we do, I mean it is, it's, it's funny. That's a, if, if you've ever been put on a performance improvement plan, it's, it's man, for a lot of people in a lot of companies, those are delivered too late. It's. I feel, I feel about the pip the way I feel about that initial conversation where I believe you're doing your teammate a favor in being transparent and pointing that out to them in a very formal way. I think that performance improvement program a lot of times is introduced too late. And that's why, if there is something that feels like ownership or upper level management is creating that gotcha moment, it's because that is a gotcha moment. If you deliver that performance improvement plan too late, then what you are doing and it looks like, and it's obvious you are documenting the reason for their departure.
If you introduce it earlier in the process, done correctly, it would have a very, a very Transparent. I'm killing that word. I'm sorry. But would have a much different feel where you would say here's the things that we've identified together that need to improve and we've written them down, we've agreed on them and now we're going to establish a consistent feedback loop. And I, I think it can be. I don't think first of all, I've never been very good at reviews and things that happen very infrequently. Right. Annual reviews.
I give reviews on the fly real time for a couple of reasons. One, business moves too fast to sit around and have this date on the calendar where we're going to talk about all these things that I've been squirreling away to drop on you on. On the 5th at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. Much more of a real time process.
[00:35:00] Speaker B: Yeah. And also too it's. It's when you do that it's so inevitable that it's just what happened in the last two weeks.
[00:35:07] Speaker A: That's exactly right.
[00:35:08] Speaker B: You know, but what about the, you know, the last two weeks she killed it but six months ago you were in the bed and that gets forget lost in that. If you wait to a certain time. Yeah.
[00:35:18] Speaker A: And here's the other thing from my side. I tend, I find that things I do once a year I suck at. Right. So you know, you try to try to do that review process and you're right, it has a. What have you done for me lately? Feel good or bad.
Which is also too. I mean if you're, if you're taught bonuses can suck and have that exact feel at end of year where you're trying to be objective. But really what you're thinking about is how good or bad Brit has been in the 30 days leading up to bonus award time. So I think that performance improvement plan should be much earlier in the process as well. Therefore, you truly give your teammate enough Runway to correct if they want to be coachable and listen and work hard at correcting the things that have somehow gotten out of sorts. Whether you know the book who moved my Cheese. Whether you know you are failing or you are not showing up the way you used to or the company move your cheese a little bit. But you're getting a very fair opportunity to correct your course and stay in the organization and be a valuable contributor. I think that part is delivered way too late. I know it happens with salespeople all the time. Time where it's after month six of missing forecast that you're put on that man. It is so hard. If you think about the length of selling cycles and what it takes. I mean, you're dropped, you're doing this to a salesperson six month in, they're another six months away. Once you get with them and you give them some of the tools that might be in that performance piece, they're still six months away from finding the. Finding the prospect and getting into the room with these long selling cycles. Now you truly are documenting their demise. And that's what it feels like. And that's where it comes off as a very mistrusting process if it feels like you're documenting their demise.
[00:37:03] Speaker B: Probably smart. I mean, to call it something else.
If the, you know, if you're catching it early and it really is to help this person figure it out. I don't know, maybe. Maybe just the wording alone would. Would change how somebody responds or receives that, I would think. Because a lot of times I think you're gonna get. You're gonna. You're gonna lay that out to somebody and it. It might crush a lot of people. Like, and not inspire. Like, the goal would be, okay, this is. This is gonna help me. This is gonna. This is going to. This motivated me. Now I have a plan. Now I can get after it. Versus oh, no, they hate me. I'm doing a bad job. I'm out.
[00:37:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:42] Speaker B: So it's all about how you deliver it, right?
[00:37:46] Speaker A: Deliver correctly would have a coaching feel, right? Yeah, but. But probably. And the same time too, in fairness, too, let's just say the sales leader in that moment, I would imagine. And certainly, you know, Ed Mackle, who is one of the best I've seen. I can promise you that Ed has been verbally coaching all the way through. And by the time, unfortunately, it does come to the performance improvement process, it is a documentation of demise. It is putting the final nail in the employee into the employee folder coffin. So if you were to have to speak to it or you were to have to justify your reason for termination for any number of reasons, especially in Maryland, which is a tough state, then, you know, it has that very sterile, cold feel to it. What if you move that all the way to the front of the process and it had more of a coaching look to it, and, and then. Then by the end of it, if you did it correctly, when. Or if you had to part ways with that teammate, there wouldn't be any surprise. It would. It should be glaring. Now, if you have someone that is a bit of an egomaniac or a narcissist, you. And you find that in the sale. You can find that in sales organizations. They would never see it coming. There's nothing you could do. You could, you could tattoo it on your chest for the six months of the pip. And when that day came, when they continued to miss numbers, they would be shocked and would also likely be someone else's fault at the same time too.
[00:39:10] Speaker B: Yeah. And I, I think it's very important that you have just that, that very defined timeline. Okay. We're going to come back and review this in 30 days, 60 days. Otherwise it's, it's meaningless.
[00:39:23] Speaker A: I, and I would even suggest, I would, I would say 30 days, two weeks before I would go 30 days, 60. Or you know, it could be in two week increments.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: Sure. I was just throwing out numbers.
[00:39:32] Speaker A: Especially if it's, if it's something like sales where we have a long selling cycle, you'd have to make sure they, they were demonstrating to you that they were changing their behavior year. Or you just wake up 60 days from now with no change. And then you, you, you'd have no choice but to actually, you'd have no choice but to part ways with that person. It was nothing else you could do.
[00:39:51] Speaker B: Is there anything else that you want to add? I mean, I think the, the bigger point here is by the time you get to being across the table with somebody and letting them go, it's a very, very quick and easy conversation. Conversation, excuse me. And no one is surprised. And hopefully you're shaking hands at the end because both people feel like, or at least the person across the table from you as the employer feels like you respected them and communicated along the way. And luckily that was my, that's exactly what happened in my last firing. And that also comes with maturity from the person that's sitting across from you. But I would have never, it would have never ended like that if I hadn't taken a page out of your book and done a lot of the things leading up, which I probably wouldn't have just because, you know, I haven't done a lot of firing or hiring for that matter by that point when that happens. But along the way I did and we had a lot of communication, a lot of discussions. So by the end we got there, they're like, yep, I got it. I didn't perform. And I know that. And it was a, I mean, three minute conversation, maybe stand up, shake hands, leave on a good note. And like, that's how ultimately it should be. It's not always, it's not always going to be picture perfect. There's some egos involved there. It may not work out where everyone's happy, content, got even mature, respectful about it.
[00:41:17] Speaker A: I don't know, maybe even some relief. Could be some relief in there too.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: Maybe. But what you're hoping for, you can't control how that person is, is how that person is receiving it and how they are going to respond. But what you can control is that. That surprise factor.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:33] Speaker B: Like you are now, that person. Unless they're just an egomaniac and they're never going to learn. That person sitting across from you is not surprised by the conversation you're having.
[00:41:43] Speaker A: Right.
[00:41:43] Speaker B: And that. That's what you can control as an employer or an executive or in management.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: Yeah. And it would. I think it would. Done correctly is exactly what you said. It would just be the last and final acknowledgement that you are no longer aligned. It would just be about alignment and it would fall apart like any other relationship would fall apart. Right. It would just, it would be recognizing that there's no more alignment now in the business world, you have to have a very formal finality to it. Somebody else that you fell out of alignment with, you might call a little less. You might drift apart. You know, you don't have that formal or that, that, that closure aspect of it. It. Like you have to when you're an employer for any number of reasons.
[00:42:21] Speaker B: Right.
[00:42:21] Speaker A: There's just mechanical things where you stop cutting paychecks. But it, it should go like that. It should, absolutely. It's not the Donald Trump Apprentice thing where you jump up on the table and scream, you're fired. It's the op. It's the exact opposite of that. I mean, I guess there was a time when that went down or people were able to snap and, and you know, out of pure emotion, cut somebody in a moment's notice. But that is absolutely not the way it should work. I don't. I sure hope it doesn't work that.
[00:42:49] Speaker B: Way today, but I don't think it does in most places at least. And very important, I think for the person that is doing the firing, it's at least my human nature to want to open the conversation up and talk and like have questions. A conversation like, don't. Don't do that. Like, it's over. You've made the decision. Like there is no fluid conversation. There's no question. Like the decision is made because you get yourself into really hot water. And when you start to open the conversation up, like, you have to be very black and white, strong, and that's hard. Like when you're sitting across from another person. That's a. The firing process is hard as it is and you typically hired that person so you like them and they're upset or disappointed or bummed. So then you're taking that on. And so it's our human nature to want to have a conversation, but you can't in that moment. Best for everyone not to.
[00:43:53] Speaker A: Yeah, all of the coaching, counseling, reprimand, if it's, if that's a word that needs to be addressed as part of the process, that's over. Like that, that is over and, and less is more in those moments. And it should just be a conclusion that everyone saw coming or at least with a very strong potential. If you've done it correctly, leading into that moment. If you've done that correctly.
[00:44:17] Speaker B: If you've done it correctly. And that's the only way otherwise that's disrespectful to just like shut it down in three minutes. But if you've done it correctly, that is, you should be able to do that. And it's the right thing to do.
[00:44:28] Speaker A: Right. And obviously all this is, you know, absent something that is fraud. You know, like obviously those moments that would have you doing something that, that looked very harsh. Fraud.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Oh sure.
[00:44:42] Speaker A: Something that endangered someone else. Certainly that can happen in the hourly part of our business. Breaking a safety rule. I mean, those are, those are different. Yeah, those are termination offenses that are, are non negotiable. And on the good side of that, whether it's OSHA or some of those bodies, I mean, and they would support it too to say Humus ran over that guy with a 4 truck, you know, something along those lines. So those are different situations, but where you've just recognized that your alignment is falling out either because that individual has changed in the way they commit or their interest in the business or the other unfortunate situation where the business has progressed past their skill set and it's now starting to show up and show out to your other teammates. You don't have the luxury of, you know, dragging that person along, if you will, because your A players will get frustrated and they'll start to look for new teams to play for.
[00:45:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, we're talking about the gradual, not the acute.
[00:45:34] Speaker A: Yeah, right. Right.
[00:45:38] Speaker B: Okay. Any. Anything else to add? I think that was, I think that was a pretty good.
[00:45:43] Speaker A: No, we hired him and fired him.
[00:45:45] Speaker B: Yeah, we, we hired and we fired.
[00:45:47] Speaker A: I feel like over a three hour period, we hired him. Fired.
[00:45:49] Speaker B: I feel like we got it wrong. I think we should have started with fire and ended with higher. But that's okay. That's okay. I always like to end on that positive note.
[00:45:57] Speaker A: But yeah, it's all right. Well, listen, that is the way that. That is the progression. So I think we're. We're just documenting the progress. We didn't, we didn't make this up. Somebody else decided it should go this way.
[00:46:06] Speaker B: Okay, we're going with that.
[00:46:06] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, can you fire someone first?
[00:46:09] Speaker B: Well, you could hire after a fire.
[00:46:11] Speaker A: You could.
[00:46:12] Speaker B: We could have. We could have looked at it from that perspective.
[00:46:14] Speaker A: You want to reshoot it?
[00:46:15] Speaker B: No.
[00:46:15] Speaker A: Okay, good. I feel like we nailed it. So we don't reshoot anything. Really. Don't you really, really reshoot anything at all? Do week?
[00:46:22] Speaker B: No. Now you're getting it all live.
[00:46:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:24] Speaker B: Cool.
[00:46:25] Speaker A: Well, hopefully that's beneficial.
[00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And as we've gone back to in the last hiring episode, last thing, I'll leave you with like the most important thing you will ever do in your life in business and whatever is surround yourself with top talent and top human beings. So the firing and the hiring process is the most important process in your business and in your life. So the more you can master it and become an expert at it, which I am still working on, the better you will be. Because it's everything. The people you surround yourself with is everything.
[00:47:02] Speaker A: I want to mention one more thing too, because we, you know, I spent a lot of time. You asked me a lot of great questions, as always, detailing the hiring process. Something that I've asked myself along the way. Not just here. I'm not. I'm not talking about these two positions exclusively, but there are sometimes where you'll think about a longer tenured teammate and you could ask yourself maybe a great qualifying question would be if they had to go through today's current process, would they still be part of our team? That's a very interesting question to ask yourself. And I've asked it a bunch recently and it's really helped with the soul searching process of making an X hire. Bringing somebody into the organization.
It really helps in that regard. Would they. Would. If they were to reapply today, would they be able to become part of the team? Great question to ask yourself.
[00:47:54] Speaker B: Yeah, agreed.
[00:47:55] Speaker A: Well, that was fun as always. Man, that zip right by.
[00:47:57] Speaker B: It did.
[00:47:58] Speaker A: Geez. All right, well, cheers, I guess.
[00:47:59] Speaker B: Cheers.
[00:48:00] Speaker A: Hey, you know what? Can we quick shout out for the. What a cool shirt. You want to. Want to just give a. I know we got a very cool thing roll out. Maybe I'll just do it quickly because you'll Never celebrate yourself. But. But Brit ran the. The Patapsco Valley 50K. 50. That is 32 miles.
[00:48:17] Speaker B: So 50K is technically 31, but this course was a 32.4 mile course.
[00:48:23] Speaker A: Okay, got it. Well, and not only finished, which is pretty impressive, five months after giving birth to Mox, but won the women's division at. At 5 hours and 25 minutes.
[00:48:37] Speaker B: This was trail.
[00:48:38] Speaker A: Yep, trail. So through the woods. Literally through the woods. Streams, rocks, rivers, waste.
[00:48:43] Speaker B: Elevation.
[00:48:43] Speaker A: Elevation. And beat a lot of really fit, talented people, including any numbers of the members of the Navy endurance team, which I thought was pretty cool and to their credit, came over and celebrated with us when you came across. So I know Tommy's got a lot of great footage that we'll hopefully be able to share out and. And take a look back at our weekend, which involved you running through the woods for 32 miles.
[00:49:08] Speaker B: Yeah, we're three days out, so I'm wearing some tight compression pants with some of the swelling, but I've had a lot of reflections about the race and as always, it's like so much of it's so applicable to life when you run 32, 5 hours and 25 minutes, you have a lot of time to think, and then afterwards, you have a lot of time to think. So we'll be sharing that, coming out with something cool, but thank you for that.
[00:49:33] Speaker A: Yeah, of course.
[00:49:34] Speaker B: It was a fun, ish day.
[00:49:35] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I thoroughly enjoyed it. I sat on my big fat button, did little to none.
[00:49:39] Speaker B: You were there with the sign and the hug.
[00:49:41] Speaker A: I did, I did. My job was to bring the baby.
[00:49:43] Speaker B: The baby, the sign and the hug.
[00:49:45] Speaker A: Mission accomplished. Yeah. So congratulations. That was very, very impressive and I'm proud of you, as always.
[00:49:49] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:49:50] Speaker A: All right, well, thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Love and Business. Truly one of our favorite things to do, I mean, just. Just to sit down with. With my wife for an hour each week and. And let you guys in. It's. It's therapeutic. I love it. And I am always so grateful that you join and take the journey with us.
[00:50:11] Speaker B: Agreed. And for more content and some cool guests coming up.
[00:50:16] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:50:17] Speaker B: Again, subscribe, please. And also if you like this episode, give us a like. Like, most importantly, I think because we love the engagement, shoot us some comments, we'll comment back. And that just gives us more creative momentum as we move forward.
[00:50:31] Speaker A: And if you're going to troll, troll me. I'm the better one to troll. So if you want to write nasty in the bottom, I am your target.
[00:50:38] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:50:38] Speaker A: I agree. Duh.
[00:50:39] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:41] Speaker A: We don't care. Just engage. So, anything, whatever it takes.
[00:50:44] Speaker B: But thank you for listening. We sincerely appreciate it.
[00:50:46] Speaker A: Yeah. Thank you. See you soon.
[00:50:47] Speaker B: See you next time.
[00:50:53] Speaker A: Welcome to a Robin Todd for the Superstars tonight. Tonight, incredible, credible.
