Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: Okay. So today, all right, here we are. Per usual, I'm just going to drop. Drop a topic.
[00:00:17] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:00:17] Speaker A: And today, a great topic we could talk about for many different reasons is creativity.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: Ooh, I like that one. I always like the topics that you have, but some, when you tell me the word, they really resonate with me. And this one very much, because I've actually stopped to think about the word creativity recently. And not that I had this big epiphany or started doing things, but just the idea that we're always looking for. We spend a lot of time talking about differentiation or what makes you more attractive.
The creativity component is so important, and a lot of times when I'm thinking about it, it's along the lines of, how do I listen to the customers better and try to identify or understand demand? And then after I do, then the next step for me is to look at Arnold packaging or Arnold automation and the resources and assets that we have, and how can I or can I align them such that we can create supply quickly or easily? Meaning it's not a massive pivot from what we're already doing now, which would suggest it's in our lane. So there's a creative aspect of that. In thinking about that piece that I was actually thinking about that word the other day, and I might have even remembered it or thought, why am I thinking about this word? Because I don't know that people apply it outside of certain parts, like art or things that just seem to have creativity really locked in with that type of activity versus another type of activity.
[00:01:51] Speaker A: Right. And I love the topic because it's applicable to anyone listening in the audience. From, whether you're a young child and you're creative on the playground, or you're retired, and you were creative in a hobby that you like, or whether you're in a business and you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly right.
You associate you, as anyone listening, plural, associate creativity with the arts, but not necessarily with manufacturing or construction. And I was listening to a podcast with a guy from Pixar, and he put it so beautifully, and it really resonated with me. He this creativity is so important in any industry, any organization.
It's merely a matter or a way of solving problems, figuring out solutions to problems. And that's so true. And you talk about innovation a lot, and you can probably speak to this more than I, but whether you think innovation and creativity are totally different or are they very similar, okay, we'll stick to that point and then I'll move on.
[00:02:58] Speaker B: Okay. No, I think one definition that hit me, as you were saying that was if we stop thinking about it exclusively by what you were going to. Just the idea that it hasn't been done yet. Right. So let's talk about creativity. Just the idea that it hasn't been done yet, where I think, unfortunately, or maybe it makes sense, creativity, a lot of times would go towards the arts or something along those lines, versus innovation, the word you said where, yeah, we would talk about being innovative. And I'm not sure if innovation gets put towards engineering or certain types of problem solving. And something else that hit me is you were talking about creativity. Sports, if you think about basketball, is one that comes to mind, whether it's things that haven't been done, if you think about skiing and some of the jumping or the different moves, skateboarding, think about creativity. You'd look at a sport like skateboarding, a 360, a 540, whatever. Are those things that are doing when they're pushing the boundaries? And you might look at that and call that creativity, that type of move or whatever they came up with. You certainly wouldn't call it innovative, though. It seems like that word seems to get put in certain spaces exclusively, where when you switch over, even though if I didn't name them or I didn't tell you and you explained, you'd say, oh, that's definitely creativity. And then if I said, oh, what? I was building a machine, you're like, no, that can't be created. That's innovation. That's not creativity.
[00:04:18] Speaker A: Right. Yeah.
And you talked about innovation being creating something newer that hasn't been done. And I think a lot of it isn't something that's entirely new, because what is entirely new, a lot of it, is taking an idea that's another idea of somebody else's, or recycled ideas or thoughts or opinions, and then putting some kind of twist on it or know it's all about recycling and either refining or making different for the most part.
And a book I recently just read by Rick Rubin, it's called the creative act. I liked it a little bit. Woo woo for me, and I say that because I haven't really been interested in the topic of creative. I would never stop to listen, for instance, to this podcast I listened to about that was headline creativity with the Pixar guy, or read the book creative act because it wasn't of interest just a couple of years ago, because I was always like, head down, work hard, grind through it over here. And in another spot, I had creativity where they're almost siloed and didn't interact and intertwine. And one was more important than the other.
I don't even know how I thought of it like that or if that even makes sense.
[00:05:38] Speaker B: Right.
[00:05:38] Speaker A: But that's where I put those two things. And now I find them equally important, intertwining, interacting, and very fluid. So my mindset around it and my interest in it has changed so, so much. And I think one of the things that you hit on is just the fact that it is so applicable in any industry. And one thing I'd really like to get into is first two different things, and I think we could split this up into two different segments if you'd like. The first one being how do you get creative? What are your tools to getting creative? Where is that derived from? In you? What do you think is important to be able to be creative? Those types of questions. And then on the other side of it is, how do you encourage creativity inside of your company throughout, from top to bottom. So let's start with the first topic, personally and your creative approach and strategy.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: Yeah, I want to bounce back quickly to something that you said. You said you were always more head down. And there are things that we'll talk about on this podcast, the idea of out thinking it versus outrunning it. I'll say at times where, yeah, the opposite, outrun it. Well, what I'll end up saying is there was no one or the other. But what I'll refer to is I had blown it and there was no opportunities to outthink it. All I could do was outrun it and or outwork it. But I think when I think about outthink, unfortunately, I would only apply, or at least I would be thinking about something that was more academic in nature, or, I don't know. But creativity wouldn't have been a word. Like when I was trying to, quote unquote, outthink it. I'm not sure that I would have plugged the word creativity now, which is a total mistake. That's an absolute positive mistake.
So back to your question. I don't know that I actually stopped to think about it when I'm in problem solving mode. Right, whatever the problem is. And then that's the other part, too. It's not like somebody presents a problem, rarely someone coming in, sit down and frame it and say, mick, I have a problem. And I'm like, oh, time for me to put on problem solving hat it's not right. There are any number of things that you experience throughout the day that could use refinement use that word, right? Could use some refinement, could work better, could be more productive, more efficient, safer. Like, there's a bunch of words that you'd plug in there where there wasn't all of these bright, flashing lights that said problem. Now, there are some of those that are very evident. Right. Quality. Something went wrong. And I will tell you, we have a very simple problem solving piece for that. The first thing we look at is process. The second we look at is training. And the third thing we look at is execution. So something goes sideways, whatever. We look at those three. Now, if we decide that the process is broken, now, we're a 90 year old company, so I will tell you that we've got processes that are really solid. They're time tested and proven, but that doesn't mean things don't change. So if we decide the process is off, then there immediately comes into that problem solving, a creativity component. And it's exactly that. Everybody, me included in the room, starts thinking, and I hope that the goal would be, or what I would want to demonstrate and try to foster would be, how do we think about it differently. Right. How do we tap into the creative side that says, well, we already know what that looks like. We've already done that. What haven't we done?
The other piece that is at play. Things are changing constantly, right? It could have been that, well, there's a new technology available, but something in and around us has changed where we now need to know and understand what else is going on in and around our sphere. And there's new opportunities to create, because there are tools available that weren't there last time, or maybe when we built this process that just failed, the tools weren't available. We did the best we had with the tools that we have. And now what I'm doing is personally and encouraging everybody that's in there in the room. And we have a continuous improvement process. It is a group of people that are assembled from different parts of the organization, and they sit in a continuous improvement meeting. And you know what? We start with all the stuff we messed up, right? It's a list of things that haven't gone so hot along the way. And that's where the opportunity, I think, presents to really plug into the creativity. But as a leader, I need to do a better job of using that word. Look, we got to get creative here. We've got to get creative. And I'm not looking for people to pick up their paintbrushes. Right. We've got to look at this problem. All the things that have changed in and around it. How we got here, that's one of our favorites. Like, how do we get here again, I don't know. I actually don't remember how we got here. When you're 90 years old, you have processes that you've inherited. I have literally inherited processes from my ancestors that are still in practice here. So I think leadership wise, that word should be much more used and even celebrated when you get to those moments and say, hey, we got to get creative here, there's an opportunity to do something bigger, better, and how do we get creative?
[00:11:01] Speaker A: I think that's interesting and really good feedback for your creative process inside of your organization and that strategy of what that looks like.
My question to you is because I think you're one of the most creative people I've met. I've told you that many times.
What does the creative process look like for you as an individual?
Now, obviously you bring that to your organization, but Mick Arnold, what is your creative process and where do you find that you're able to think creatively? Where does that come from for you?
Is it something you work on? Is it something you think about? What does that look like for you?
[00:11:50] Speaker B: I think there's usually there is a stimulus or stimuli of sorts. There's a stimulus? Yeah. Is that how smart people say it was one use stimulus when they're starting to say something smart? Maybe I need to get a better accent when I think I'm saying something smart now you'll know from all he said, he must be thinking. He's saying smart. He said stimulus.
So usually there's some type of stimulus. Is that better?
That would get me into that mode. Right. And I will tell you that I think it's almost always in a problem. I don't know that I have a lot of extra bandwidth or brain time. I wish I did. Maybe I need to work on this, too, to say, you know what? I've got a moment. What can I think about that I haven't thought about?
I would picture a writer doing that. I would picture a musician doing that. I would picture something along those lines. And maybe that's my made up story. Maybe they're taking some broken relationship or some breakup and putting it into a song. That definitely happens. But I would say for me, that stimulus is probably based on fixing something and maybe it's not broken. Maybe it could be better. Maybe I was looking for something and I couldn't find a solution and that would make me think, I wonder if anybody else is looking for this, too. Maybe there's something to be done. So I would say for me it's probably based on some type of stimulus. And usually it would be something that is either completely broken or I think I have identified an opportunity or the potential to make it better.
And then I would say for me individually, I'm generally tapping all of the things that I have seen. I mean, one of the greatest things about my job and being in this industry in general is that when you're packaging things, you get exposure to lots of different industries. We have 800 customers in general. Half of them make things and half of them distribute things. So I'm usually calling on all of these demonstrations that I see. I was in the car plant and they did this. So I think I am probably pulling on. What I'll say now is at my age, a 40 year history, when I started working in the plant, traveled with my dad making sales calls, started making my own sales calls, started to travel, started going to shows, industrial shows. I think I'm probably just tapping into all of those things that I've seen along the way. And I would say that's probably where that comes from. And then also having to do the research and understand what's changed. Right. That's all past. And maybe there's some great past demonstrated performance that makes sense, but then it's about the entire other pieces, what's different, what's available. So that would have me in youtubes and Khan academies and simple Google jumping down what I call the rabbit hole to try to get as much exposure to see if there's a fit or something that's already been invented or innovated. That makes sense. Created. Remember created, a better word. Right?
And I think that's with you catching me completely cold turkey. And a lot of these. We sit here thinking this through and then we end. We're like, damn, I didn't even know that's who I was.
I would say that if I had to sum it up, I believe that's where I get, or what pushes me in. I would love to say that I get pulled in. I was like, I wonder what I'll do. I think I get pushed in and usually there's some type of a stimulus that requires fixing and that's what would push me into my creativity mode. How about you?
[00:15:20] Speaker A: I would agree with that and I will take the ball. But my next question to you was, is there a particular time when creativity strikes you most often? And what I mean by that is you will hear so many people talk that I have my most creative thoughts in the shower or when I'm walking or when I'm meditating. And it's funny and I giggle a little bit because you and I aren't going to have the time right now. When we're running businesses and we're in the trenches, we don't have the time to take a two hour hike and think. A lot of people are like, be bored. Sit and think, okay, love it. Love the concept. Never happening.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: Right?
[00:16:02] Speaker A: So it's just like, it's not happening.
[00:16:04] Speaker B: Can you imagine you sitting, I'll use the proper term, crisscross applesauce in a field.
[00:16:08] Speaker A: I mean, working on your meditating is a goal, but that ain't going so well.
[00:16:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I get it now.
[00:16:14] Speaker A: I can say if we're talking about times where it strikes me, I do religiously, as I've talked about before, exercise and run.
But that's not like me taking a two hour time. So I can think. I'm trying to achieve a goal generally, and I find that I do have a ton of thoughts when I'm running, but typically, I'm pushing. Like I'm training, I'm not exercising, and I'm working so hard that I actually don't have total bandwidth to think because I'm thinking about my workout.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: Well, let me interrupt for a second. So I know that you have on a podcast, while you're training, how much of that do you think is getting in? Because that's a point, too, where you have a lot of stimuli, right? You're training, you're tracking, you're paying attention to the quality of a workout that you're getting at that moment. But you also have a podcast of some kind piped into your ears. What type of bandwidth do you think? Because I know that's where you listen to the vast majority and you come into this. Yeah. And you come into this podcast, for example, prepared. You got an idea. And I know that something, I'm pretty sure something has sparked it or at least started that thought, and then you probably thought through it or continue to add on to or build around it between when you heard it and when we walk into this room. So how much of that bandwidth do you think is available while you're also pushing your body to pretty strenuous efforts?
[00:17:40] Speaker A: Efforts, yeah, good question. So I definitely absorb more when it's less intense. So if it's towards the end of a workout, when I'm just walking or cooling down, definitely absorbing more. I do absorb a fair amount when I'm running and pushing, but I'll notice that my mind will wander. And a lot of times I'll have to like something. All of a sudden, I'll be three minutes in and I'll be like, holy shit, I wanted to hear that. And I'll have to rewind. So it's definitely based on intensity. And a lot of times I'll find myself rewinding back. But my bigger point to this was, I have a lot of thoughts, but my bandwidth is limited, so I will think of things. But I typically am not able to completely consolidate those thoughts into something comprehensive or understandable until I'm sitting pretty relaxed, which isn't that often, but sitting or just doing something more relaxed, then they all come rushing in, which is.
[00:18:44] Speaker B: So they're getting in, right? So the answer would be, they're getting.
[00:18:47] Speaker A: They are.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: You may or may not be able to piece them together while you're running 8.7 miles an hour.
[00:18:51] Speaker A: Can't you?
[00:18:53] Speaker B: But they're getting in.
[00:18:54] Speaker A: Yeah, they are. And I'm still trying to figure this out, like, if this is what I'm saying is actually the protocol or how this actually works, but I do think thoughts going through my head. I don't not totally absorb it. And then once my body calms down and I have a little time that it's relaxing, all of a sudden I'm able to consolidate them into understandable think points.
[00:19:15] Speaker B: Yeah. Can I tell you what mine is?
[00:19:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I would love to.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Which is very different than it used to be. It's the car.
And one of my biggest gripes with the car is it's really hard to be productive anymore. It's so hard because, at least in our industry, I know construction, there's still a lot of phone calls, and there's a lot of phone conversation that goes on. I will tell you, that is virtually gone. I mean, there are some days when I'll be looking for a number in my phone, for example, and I'll look at recent inbound calls. I might not have any for the course of the day. Or if I do, it's you.
Because we were somewhere.
[00:19:49] Speaker A: Is that like you were disappointed?
[00:19:50] Speaker B: No. Just you? No. But because we're rarely apart, I just yell into the office across the way, and I'm like, oh, that's right. We weren't together for eight minutes and we had to call each other.
But the car is one of those spots. And I will have CNBC on the vast majority of the time, but even then, still, I mean, there's a repetition to that where.
But it's the car. And like you just said, I'm not sure if this is safe or not, but I'll realize that I don't remember the last x number of minutes of the drive. I'm sure I was on point, but I don't remember the last ten minutes of the drive. But the car has become that place for me only because I'm not able to do anything else. I'm not able to answer an email or whatever. So the car has become that space. I call it windshield time, and I will try to make some phone calls if I can, but it's becoming so difficult now that I drive in silence.
Not radio silence, because it's on, but I drive in silence the vast majority of time, and I'll find myself stringing ideas together there. The challenge is to get them recorded in some fashion so that I don't miss the opportunity to execute or at least investigate them further if I think I might have gotten onto something.
[00:21:00] Speaker A: So maybe there is something to that meditative, quiet taking.
I think there is. We don't generally have a ton of time to do something like that, but the car is a good example. And I've talked about this, I think in one other episode I have been conscious. Not great at executing, but not having too much stimulus in my ears too often. So striking a really good balance between over consuming, but also making sure I have enough time and silence and solitude to think on my own. I do not want to have everybody else's opinion and thoughts, although to some degree just living in the real world, that's almost inevitable. You're getting opinions and thoughts from everybody every day. But I do want to have time to think without things in my ear to generate my own thoughts. And a woman named Cody Sanchez, she's an investor, and I think she's really smart, and she created something called contrarian thinking, and I don't love that name because it almost makes it seem like you're deliberately being a contrarian and thinking opposite just to think opposite. But that's not what it's intended.
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Meaning it's not argumentative or something. If you want to take that in.
[00:22:18] Speaker A: A crazy ass direction, it's argumentative like I'm going to debate to debate you. But it's her way of just saying the most brilliant, successful people in her eyes are the ones that think differently. They're not just regurgitating the same shit all the time. And that's really hard to do in the world we live in, especially when we're so freaking tied to technology. So I have definitely made it a point to try to find, strike a really good balance between over consuming and creating. To the point where I even had at a certain point at night, like that alarm that would go off that says, stop consuming, start creating. Which you might think it's dumb, but it's just that little reminder, it's important. Now, one thing I do want to say, however, now playing Evel's advocate, do it. I can only say Evel's advocate from now on.
[00:23:07] Speaker B: Do it.
[00:23:08] Speaker A: Evel's advocate.
I do get inspired and motivated when I read or I listen to books that trigger thoughts. Like you said, a certain particular stimulus that drives other thoughts. So I think stimulus, stimulus.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Yeah, it's from the greek.
[00:23:25] Speaker A: I think that's important. But one reason I really like books in that regard, as opposed to a podcast or even a movie, podcast, movie. It's back and forth. It's telling you what to think, where books, you're really left to create your own thoughts and ideas. So while you're reading this story, you have a lot of freedom to create, think certain ways or create the story around the story. Whereas in podcast movies, it's almost telling you, like, this is what it is. So books are really fascinating to me, and that might be why I love them. So it's definitely my favorite. If I could just pick one type of media, I guess you'll call it for the rest of your life, it would be just a hardcover book for me.
[00:24:19] Speaker B: I think the piece about books, and I never stopped to think about this is their absent opinion. If you're watching a podcast, it's my opinion, and then your opinion. Then my opinion and then my opinion. Your opinion. Where certainly books, depending on what style they are, but I almost have this journey if I'm thinking about a book, right. It has this journey feel to it, but you have all the art. Back to criticism because I use the word artistic license a lot in and around our business, too. So I will absolutely use artistic license. Going back to the point of this, in creativity, I will use artistic license to say, I don't know, use your artistic license. And guy standing over a six axis robot arm, like, what are you talking about? My artistic. What? This is a machine. But yeah, no, I absolutely mean, there's a lot of different ways to get from point a to point b. You just got to teach that thing the best way to do it to be most effective. So I will use our artistic license. But I have. The book idea is there's a loosely formed journey that the book is taking you on and an absent a lot of opinion. Depending on the type of book that you're reading.
[00:25:25] Speaker A: Depending on the type. Exactly. The genre. And there's also something so creative about the actual art of writing. For me, way more than speaking, it's just a book I'm reading now. While I love the storyline, I love biographies, and I'm obsessed with the storyline itself.
I'm equally obsessed with the style of the style of the writer. It resonates with me. It's so beautiful and elegant. I love it. And I know that when I'm writing, I feel way more creative than.
And maybe for me, my skill set just isn't as much in speaking as it is in being able to articulate via writing. I think if you read my writing, I think most people would think I was more creative than if they heard me articulate it. I think it's just better. I'm better at that particular skill set. But I also think part of that is when I'm writing, I feel like I can get in more of a creative space. And I think it tells so much more. I don't know. I believe it can tell so much more about a person and their style and the way they put their words and their sentences together. I'm so interested. In fact, I just bought five books about writing.
[00:26:45] Speaker B: I completely agree. I am the same exact person. And I will say for a number of reasons. One, because one of the most influential people of me in my life was my 10th grade english teacher, who I didn't know, I mean, again, as I said multiple times, I was such a moron.
I was so immature. I don't know, maybe that's the right word, that I truly didn't know what I was learning in any number of spots. Now I look back and realize, like we were just talking about with you on the treadmill. It was absolutely getting through.
I couldn't take a test on it. I failed the vast majority of those, but it was absolutely getting through. Whatever my brain was doing with it, it was getting through. But it took me much longer. And I know that when you write, and I'm the same way, I am very intentional about creating the pictures that go with the story by using words. And I think in today's world of hyper video, I mean, everything is consumed by video. Video.
You get to see what somebody puts in front of you in that regard versus when you're writing and you want somebody to follow. If you're a great storyteller, there's a lot of different ways to tell it. I could tell it to you verbally.
I could write it, or I could show you a video of it. And I think each one of those media requires more and or less creativity, right? If I have to do it in writing, and you could say speaking might be the same thing, right? Just because you don't have any visual aids. But if I'm doing it in writing, then, boy, the amount or the type of creativity I believe it takes to tell the appropriate story where you are directing the reader through and you want them to feel like they are in that space and that moment with you, and you only have a tool called words to do it. I just think there's a different creativity that's required to do that. And speaking, I don't know, maybe I feel like that's just a little less. I don't know why, because I don't.
[00:28:36] Speaker A: Know why either, but I could not feel more the same.
[00:28:40] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's wrong, right? Because if I just stood here looking at you and I had to tell you what I did, I would have to. But I don't know. I don't feel like if I was telling you this story verbally, I would take as much time as I do in writing to create the visual so that you are on that journey with me. And then throw in video. Hell, you see what you see and you figure it out. And I have little to nothing, little, if anything, to say about what's going on or what you're visualizing in that moment.
[00:29:06] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And one thing for me, and this has become more prevalent, I would say the last several years, is I have this thing, for lack of a better word, that I will have this creative moment and it could strike at any time. But usually it's in the mornings, and usually it's when I happen to be feeling really good, just feeling good in my body and everything. And I'm like, I feel so creative right now and I have this thought and I have to get it out. And it's always via writing. And a lot of times it will come out on LinkedIn post or whatever that looks like. Typically, that is it. And I cannot do anything else, at least not well, until I get that out. Like, I have to lean into that creative feeling and let it out, and I will do that over anything else, even the priorities that need to get done in work. And I'm just being honest because until I do that, my mind cannot focus on anything else. It's very weird, but it's such a strong thought. And this feeling of I have to put this creative opinion or a thought idea on paper before I can move on with anything else. It's like such a strong urge.
And I've told you that before, and you typically are like, oh, you'll know when that happens. You'll be like, oh, I see what.
[00:30:36] Speaker B: You yeah, and I've gotten bad about it.
I need to create that time and be more intentional because there are some things that have happened recently in business that I absolutely wanted to share. One was an e fraud event that we had, which I will write about, and I really want to tell that story. And I know that I will be incredibly creative in trying to tell and articulate that experience and the takeaways from it. And not so much that I'm just blasting my opinion or not giving any room for thought. It's a little more factual in nature, so it probably should be that way. But I've definitely lost some of that. I will say that I am taking that, though, and conveying it into work. I mean, we're doing and looking for new opportunities, and there's things that we are getting into that we haven't approached before. But it's right back to what we started the talk with was a customer asking a question or saying, would it be easier if someone did that for you? That doesn't seem to be what you're really good at. And then there's a creativity piece where I come back with our team and say, I found a situation where this customer is doing this now. What would it look like if we attempted to do it for them? Kidding is something that I'll pick right where customers just isn't as good at it. We're going to create a finished good or deliver it more complete than just flat this or unassembled. That would sound like creativity. Could sound like a really weird word to use there, but it absolutely, positively is.
[00:32:06] Speaker A: I think I've gotten more creative as I've gotten older. Although a point you made is about being creative in sports and being a soccer player, I probably was very creative. I mean, the way you see the field and the pitch and certain plays developing, and that's all creativity. But I didn't associate being creative, even though as part of a soccer player, that's very much so. I mean, the little flicks I would do, and that was one of the things I always did as a forward that received the ball with her back to defenders. I would also flick the ball off, spin out. Those were all creative thoughts, but I didn't necessarily associate that with creativity at the time. So maybe I was more creative than I give myself credit for, but where I was going was, I try to think, okay, how do you develop if somebody's like, okay, I don't believe I'm the most creative person. How do I become more creative?
And when I sit back and think about why I think I'm more creative now than I've ever been, I think a lot of it has to do with two different things that I can tie it to one, and this is creativity inside the business. I would say the more you know and the more wisdom you have and the more experiences you have, you're just able to be more creative because you can connect dots that you once could not connect. So I'm able to see something and pull from a lot of different directions and a lot of different experiences now and come up with a creative solution where if you have someone new in my business, and I've said this before, they're like, how did you even think of that? I've thought of that because I've had so many of these experiences. So just by default of being a little bit older and wiser and having more experiences, I do think that lends its hand to the ability to be more creative. Would you agree?
[00:34:01] Speaker B: I do, yeah. Because I talked about connecting those dots. Remember, you asked me early on and I was talking about being fortunate to be in the industry for such a long time, 800 customers doing lots of different things, half making, half distributing, and then each of them having all these incredible nuances to their businesses that I just got to go from place to place and observe along the way. So I absolutely, positively agree.
That's interesting too, though, just in that think about back to your childhood, right?
Would that be to suggest that when you're younger and you don't have those experience, that you're only limited to certain types of creativity? Like, I would watch the girls and their demonstrations were trees and birds and whatever they had experienced in their very short lives because they were 6810, twelve Brooke, an amazing artist. But what she knew was what she had experienced and had the ability to grab a paintbrush or a pen or a pencil and tie that together. So interesting that I don't never that creativity wasn't there for me as a kid. Now I had the same outlets. I'll give you a case in point. Everyone considers Patrick Mahomes, for example, creative, whether it's throwing the ball underhand, the look away basketball strikes me that know the different dunks or whatever these different things are.
But just thinking back to my childhood, where I still, to this day, can barely draw a stick figure. So that type of creativity is not what I am capable of. I don't assimilate information that way and put it back together like somebody that would truly be considered an artist. My art would have much more of a problem solving, see the shortest distance between two points, and be able to wrap my creative brain about solving that, pulling in from all of those influences, but not nearly able to do it in what one would consider a very traditional creativity way, like Pixar, or like art, or like all of those things. I don't know if that's just chemically how it's put together, or if it was the early demonstrations that I had and I didn't get a chance, or I didn't work that muscle. So it atrophied early. And I'm just not, unless sort of spending a lot of time, I'm not going to get a chance to build that muscle.
[00:36:24] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree with your thoughts. And actually, I will debate myself on the other side of the table, because while I do think I've become more creative because gotten older, more experiences, everything I just said, I think when you're younger, you have the ability to be very creative because of what you don't know. And so you are not jaded, and your thoughts aren't necessarily formed by all of these external influences. You have less of them, and thus you are able to think more for yourself. And actually, in the book by Arthur Brooks, strength to strength, he argues that you are way more creative. And 90, I don't know what he said. 90% to 95% of innovation is done before you're in your thirty s. And once you get to midlife, forty s, fifty s, you should rely more on your wisdom and not your innovation. So he would actually argue the exact opposite of what I just said. I think there's truth in both. Me too. The more I think about it, there's totally truth in both.
[00:37:32] Speaker B: Well, I think also too, I believe he argues something. I argues that's a goofy word here, but I think he suggests heavily that there becomes an inelasticity along the way, too. Right. The inelasticity of thought, or which then limits creativity. And I think one of the words I would use in there was predisposition. When you're younger, you haven't been predisposed to any number of things that would shape that. You literally know what you don't know, therefore, you don't know what you don't know.
And it's not a barrier. Absolutely. You don't even consider it a barrier because you had no idea you shouldn't be doing it. Like, oh, I didn't know. Well, no one else has done that. You're like, well, I didn't know that nobody else had done that. So it didn't even occur to me that it couldn't be done. I just did it. And that's how a lot of great things happen.
[00:38:16] Speaker A: It is. And there's something to be said about being naive and cavalier in that you're not afraid to take risks, and thus that allows you to be a little bit more creative. And that's something I think you and I have at least done a fairly good job of not losing that, of not trying to be like, we are older and we have obligations and do we have to be smart? Of course. But I never want that to lessen our creative spirit, our ability to take risks and just get in there. I mean, we live one life, so not be totally irrational, impulsive, but have a little bit of both.
[00:38:51] Speaker B: Well, flexing that creativity for both of us is a solution for boredom or anything that would feel stagnant or stayed so flexing that creative muscle.
And I'm going to backtrack on some things I've said, too. My comment was, well, I feel like there's a stimulus that generally has a problem to be solved. Not always. Sometimes the problem that you and I will solve is boredom. We've talked about having to be careful about being too impulsive or not having a governor on any things, or no one keeping an eye on the store because both of us are doing the same thing. I would say that there is definitely a piece of creativity that is driven by avoiding boredom.
[00:39:37] Speaker A: I want to change that state. Can I change that word?
[00:39:39] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:39:40] Speaker A: Because boredom would suggest that we have the time to be bored, which also a lot of people would suggest you should have the time to be bored.
[00:39:47] Speaker B: Is complacency better?
[00:39:48] Speaker A: No. Well, I don't think that's the case either. I think monotony might be a better word. Okay.
For me, I'll speak on my behalf.
[00:39:56] Speaker B: Yeah, because you're working your ass off doing the same thing over and over.
[00:40:00] Speaker A: Again, tirelessly and many, many hours. I always say I cannot remember the last time I was bored, and I would enjoy experiencing that. And probably it probably is good for your creative process.
[00:40:12] Speaker B: That's a great point.
[00:40:13] Speaker A: I know when I'm in my business and we're particularly transactional for a long period of time, and I'm like, this is very monotonous and laborious. And I'm not feeling creatively inspired at all by this. That's when I need to just do something totally. Sometimes a little bit irrational because I'm like, I need to just inject, infuse this creative thing in here because this is driving me insane.
[00:40:39] Speaker B: And sometimes it's physically right. I mean, there are times where we will just physically go somewhere or break the bounds and the barriers. For me, that's a sales call. I think that's part of where that comes from.
[00:40:48] Speaker A: Or travel. That's actually great. I think travel and culture, what a wonderful way to spark creativity.
[00:40:53] Speaker B: Smack your perspective around for a second.
[00:40:55] Speaker A: For young kids, there is nothing better than just from as early on as you can, just traveling with them, taking them places, experiencing culture, people.
I just think for the creative process, what could be better?
[00:41:11] Speaker B: Yeah, I totally agree. I think that's back to what we've already talked about, too. All of those life experiences. I think you could plug the word perspectives in there where you're thinking about all of those different things that you viewed and getting a chance to sit back and watch the perspectives of other people. When you travel to different places and you see different socioeconomic situations, whether it's local, you don't have to go that far. I mean, you want to shake it up. Go to Baltimore City, you can find anything you want to find just 10 miles from here in any type of situation. But then go a little further. Go a little further where you start to get into different cultures and you start to lay in hundreds or thousands of years of how things got the way they are. And just by virtue of being different, you're going to learn a lot. It's going to snap you out of the monotony and certainly change your view for a moment. May not change your worldview, but certainly going to open you up and break that monotony.
[00:42:05] Speaker A: And I know there's only so much we could do inside the education and school system. You have to have some kind of structure, of course, but just another reason that our typical structure of school, where it's kids sitting in the same classroom with the same kids and the same teacher for a year, talk about lack of supporting or any kind of creative process, it's missing. And I don't know how you fix that.
[00:42:37] Speaker B: And at some point we have to get on to education because I need to talk about it.
[00:42:41] Speaker A: Okay, we will.
Yeah, we can't go down that. No, but that's just a comment. Now, another thing I will say, because I said I had two, so one was just being wiser, more experiences the other way. I think I reason, I don't want to keep saying more creative because then I just went back and said maybe I was more creative as a kid.
This is a way I think that I have been able to improve or enhance my creativity is being around people and deliberately, intentionally putting myself around people and surrounding myself with people that think bigger.
You are one of them. And when you think bigger and your lens gets broader and your world gets just larger, you are able to have so many more creative thoughts and you could look and say, well, dub Britt, that makes sense. But I don't think that's something people always associate. Is another reason to put myself in places where there's just people that are way more successful. However you want to define success than I am, that are thinking so much bigger. I have a $1 million company. This person has 100 million dollar company. Let me sit in that room. Let me make an effort to be there because they are thinking bigger. And when your world gets larger, you can think so much more creatively. Like think about it. Your lens is not more if you think about it. If you equate it to photography, it's like having one lens and one angle and only one type of lighting. Right. Open that up and all of a sudden you have this whole new creative world and ability to capture photos in so many different ways.
[00:44:20] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I completely agree. And I think we were talking about this last night, too. We had the good fortune to attend an event that had a lot of great people in it.
[00:44:31] Speaker A: Well, let's just call it what it was. It was all ceos.
[00:44:34] Speaker B: It was the brightest ceos of the.
[00:44:36] Speaker A: Baltimore area, which were, I mean, you're talking big. Banks, BGE, secretary of commerce for Maryland. Yeah, big.
[00:44:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Hopkins in the room.
[00:44:47] Speaker A: I mean, you could just go on and on.
[00:44:49] Speaker B: Yeah. The challenge for me is that I find so much of that to be surface.
I'd rather have 2 hours with four people than 20 minutes with 300 people. Where you're flying by, you're catching a name tag, you're tying something together, but it's so surface. The people that are thinking bigger. Right. I mean, there's a saying about skating to where the puck is going. Right? There's another one that we use around here that says be there waiting for the puck. Right. That's the people that I want to spend time with and the people that have figured it out such that they're not just skating where the puck's going, they're actually waiting for it. To catch up right now with the movement of AI and some of the things that are going on there. There's some individuals that ten years ago were working on this, and I believe in this moment that with what AI, for example, has presented, those people were there waiting for the puck, whether it was chat, GTP, or some of the other ones. Chat, GPT.
[00:45:55] Speaker A: You said GTP, GPT.
[00:45:57] Speaker B: Sorry. Right. Those are easily.
[00:45:59] Speaker A: See, every time I have to call it out because you don't have the dyslexic nature that I have. I feel like I'm not actually dyslexic, but I feel like I say things in a dyslexic way. A lot like devil's advocate, whatever.
[00:46:13] Speaker B: It was only evil's advocate, though. And I think that's because that's for you. You're so excited at the next word. Heat cedar is an easy one, I.
[00:46:21] Speaker A: Always say heat cedar.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: And my mother. I know you're listening, mom, listen, for this one, it was potcrock.
There you go. Diana Potrock. I know you're laughing out loud.
[00:46:32] Speaker A: My point was, I have to call you out because it doesn't happen often.
[00:46:35] Speaker B: That's fair.
[00:46:35] Speaker A: It makes myself feel better. Kidding. I got to drag you down to my level.
[00:46:38] Speaker B: You're so excited about the next words you're going to say, I think you might mail in the one behind every once in a.
[00:46:44] Speaker A: Like, you gave me an excuse.
[00:46:45] Speaker B: You're welcome. And you're welcome. That's right. That's what a great teammate does. I know, and you cover for my ass constantly anyway, so I think that's the part where that's the thing that bums me out, just not being able to spend some of that quality time and actually listening to the story and the build up.
And by the time some of those news outlets, by the time you get the story, it's been so distilled or diluted or whatever. We talked about opinions coming from everywhere that, man, I just want to take the time to hear the story myself and then disseminate the truth into what I think about it. And then that's also a big driver of creativity. And like, well, there's five ideas that I never thought about. Just because you're from a different sphere, what can I do with that in my sphere? How can I make that relevant, get better, be better? And all of that piece is all about that creativity.
[00:47:40] Speaker A: Yes. And on that same topic of going to networking events and only being able to say, how's the weather? How's your vacation?
There's a whole podcast. And I suggested this at some point we do it on the value in, and this is probably throughout the duration of your career, when it's most beneficial to go to networking events versus having one on one mentors, versus having two to three conversations, two to three people more intimate, what is best for you in the trajectory throughout the trajectory of your career? Because I have a lot of thoughts on this, because I've done all of it a lot. But the best part of the networking is meeting the people and then following up with two or three people and having those conversations. That's the only way to get any depth at all. I would like to end on one last topic because I mentioned it and I don't want to skip over it, is how to encourage creativity within your teammates, in your organization, and do it effectively.
[00:48:44] Speaker B: So let's assume so. A great takeaway from this would be to be proactive or preemptive with your creativity. Why do we have to wait till something's broken to flex our creativity muscle in fixed mode? How do you preempt or how do you get out ahead and be creating as a team? Right? I mean, a lot of times what happens here is I do feel like that at times I am the exclusive chief vision officer and I don't want to be the only chief vision officer. I want everybody here to be a chief vision officer. So I think there's any number of things that can be done. And you have teams in and around my directs. My oldest direct report is 62 years old, and that weaves all the way down to emerging thought leaders who we're exposed to at 23. Right. So there's 40 massive years. So the one thing I would say is, how do I do a better job of getting all of those people with their different perspectives? That's a word we talked about, which would be very important to creativity.
Why aren't we doing more creating on the front together? Right. Don't wait for me to be chief vision officer and come back and say, I think I found a demand component in the market. Now, how do we create supply?
I think the way to do that, or that we could do a better job would be to much more, be more preemptive with that. What did you see? What did you see? We've got a sales organization of 1213 people that are doing what I just discussed and described. They are out calling on and interacting with those 800 customers that I talk about. How do we do a better job of preempting the creativity? And who knows, we will probably even solve some problems before they become problems. If we get out ahead of it and we're using all the things we talked about today, right. We talk about perspective. We have a saying around here that you need someone to watch your blind spot because we're so leaned into what we do. And that's why that perspective is important. So I think a better way. I mean, certainly when it does get to the reactive problem solving part, I think we have a process in place. But unfortunately, that has a feeling like shutting the barn door when all the chickens are out. Right.
You have to do it. You got to catch a couple of chickens before all of them are out. But I think being more preemptive with the creativity and creating a forum or a format or a place where you would be preemptive and be talking about those ideas, I feel like at least here we wait, or we are stuck waiting. Not we wait. We are stuck waiting for me, in a lot of those situations to come back as the chief vision officer and put something on the plate for us to pursue versus having all of these tentacles out. Right. And having these massive nets cast where all of these different vision opportunities are presenting. And then we have this multitude of things to choose from and that we could talk about and decide to leverage or not leverage. But I think Arnold packaging and Arnold automation would be better if we would be more preemptive in that and not relying on leader founder to be the exclusive chief vision officer. I think that's something that we could do a better job with, which is.
[00:52:10] Speaker A: Really interesting, because recently we've been talking about this. A lot of ceos have actually hired ceos in their place, retired as ceos and become chief vision officer. Is that a word exclusively?
[00:52:23] Speaker B: I didn't know if that would maybe.
[00:52:25] Speaker A: But I mean, I think they've called themselves something else.
I think that's possible. If you don't have all the CEO. I would love to do that, but I have a CEO.
[00:52:35] Speaker B: Do you have a job?
[00:52:36] Speaker A: Yeah.
While I think what you suggested is possible, I want to push back a little bit because this reminds simply because of human nature. And here's what I mean by that. It's just like when something tragic happens in your life or your health declines and then all of a sudden you become healthy, or like you have all this gratitude.
And the question is always when something tragic happens, I don't finish all my sentences always because I want to move on to the next one.
[00:53:04] Speaker B: Yeah, I was right. I nailed that.
[00:53:05] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I've been listening to myself and I'm like I said, half the sentence. I know what I mean, but no one listening does.
The question, is this something so tragic? Do you have to hit rock bottom to all of a sudden have this insight? And some people are like, yeah, I think you do. I think that is human nature and there's nothing you can do about it. And in this particular instance, I'm not sure that we are going to, for the most part, be proactive and creatively thinking. You know why? Because we have so many challenges, immediate challenges at hand, to solve, ideally. That sounds great. I think you could keep it up for a couple of months. But can that last? I think it can. I think it's possible. But I think you would have to be so utterly just committed and diligent to that practice, which I think is very hard.
[00:53:55] Speaker B: Do you mean as an individual though?
[00:53:57] Speaker A: As an individual, probably all of it. As an individual or a company?
[00:54:02] Speaker B: I only see that because I think what I'm getting ready to do is agree with you completely. I completely agree that as an individual, it's virtually impossible just from a simple bandwidth perspective.
I would like to see, or I think there's a smart test trial to be done to say, all right, so wait a minute, one can't do it because of bandwidth, but what if you brought a bunch of people together? Could you compress the time frame that it took? I mean, why do you have to get smacked upside the head to do something different? Boy, if you could get out ahead of it and say, well, I've identified this as why should I have to have a heart attack to lose weight, right? And how do you get out of having to have this smacked upside the head feel to encourage, right? Or different, unless you simply don't know, right? And that's a different thing. But I do know that if I don't make good eating choices, I'm going to put my heart at risk. Doesn't mean I'm going to make that choice. But maybe the real challenge here is how do you stop waiting? Or how do you get away from getting slapped upside the head to get out and try to preempt some of this?
[00:55:04] Speaker A: It's hard. I think the Pixar guy referred to it as the brain trust meeting or something along those lines.
So that's one thing. And then I think the other thing that is more manageable, feasible in just the everyday business life that we lead is creating incentive or being the type of leader that supports creativity, listens and actually rewards. And I'm not sure if you have a particular boss where people are afraid to debate or have varying opposing opinions or come to them about something that's not going to inspire creativity of any.
[00:55:49] Speaker B: And actually anti at that particular moment. Right.
[00:55:52] Speaker A: So I look at you and I, and I think we're very responsible for. I can sit here and say I have all the visions and creativity. And to be honest, much like you, I do think I am the visionary and having majority almost all of the big pictures and the creative ideas. But I have to look at myself and say maybe, and I believe this to be true, at least outwardly, I want creativity, but I'm not sure I articulate that or show that or demonstrate that to my employees as much as I should be. I think if I have the idea, a lot of times I don't want to say they're going along with it. Of course they speak their opinion. But I don't know. I don't think I am very good. Probably as good as I need to be inspiring that creative or letting them know that I want to hear it. And I will certainly take it in and listen. And we can collectively come to creative outcomes. But I need to do a better job. And I think a lot of that is the responsibility of the leader. Because if you don't give people the courage and the incentive and the reward to think creatively, it's one thing to think creatively, but then bring it to the table, because without that it does not come into fruition, then we have nothing.
[00:57:18] Speaker B: Well, listen, clearly we're not getting it right. I just told you, I feel like I'm the lone chief vision officer. So clearly I'm not getting it right.
[00:57:25] Speaker A: You're not the only creative person at.
[00:57:26] Speaker B: Arnold packaging without by far, no. And that's the other part, right? I mean, some could argue that know not nearly as creative as many, many others. And what does it take? Know, what do I need to do differently, better to make sure that they are at the table creating? And if it's knowledge, let's just say that some of them are not creating the way that I would like them to, or me embracing that vision or creativity. Maybe they haven't quite gotten to the point in their career where they are connecting the dots, which would make them that much more valuable.
[00:57:55] Speaker A: But that is predisposed. So that is part of it. It's harder with the younger employees sometimes to bring the creative to the table because they don't understand enough to be able to do that, where it's going to be really impactful, positively impactful for the company. But there's got to be other ways. Right.
And I don't know necessarily what that is. I'm thinking about it now. It's definitely something I'm thinking about. How do I generate a different culture where everyone really wants to be creative and not at the detriment of what their responsibilities are? Because that's what you risk is like, let me get really creative. Let me redo this system or this.
[00:58:39] Speaker B: We've each had those employees we have.
[00:58:41] Speaker A: And they're no longer here.
[00:58:42] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:58:42] Speaker A: So you got to get the job done and get it done well. But there is also the opportunity to bring creative things to the table that are really impactful for the company.
[00:58:54] Speaker B: How do you weave that in from an evolutionary perspective? Right. Because the revolutionary stuff you just talked about, where you have someone individual that comes in with a little bit too much change, how do you encourage that, such that you weave that into the evolutionary process where you are getting the job done. You're still delivering for your customers. Right. You're still doing all the things you need to do, but you also have woven that creativity into your evolution.
[00:59:18] Speaker A: It can't be disruptive.
[00:59:19] Speaker B: That's what right would look like.
[00:59:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:59:20] Speaker B: That would be revolutionary. Right?
[00:59:22] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think we'll end on that. I believe we both have that to work on.
[00:59:29] Speaker B: Definitely.
[00:59:29] Speaker A: And it's something that we should be talking about. And if we find that we are figuring out ways that it does look like it's helping, we should talk about that. Because I think other managers, ceos, people in executive positions probably have the same challenges and thoughts and want to find a way to encourage that because it's so important inside an organization.
[00:59:57] Speaker B: I got to find a way to have 75 chief vision officers. That's what I'm going to work on.
[01:00:00] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:00:01] Speaker B: Without being disruptive or distracting.
[01:00:05] Speaker A: That's right.
[01:00:05] Speaker B: How do you weed that into the evolution?
[01:00:07] Speaker A: Yep.
[01:00:07] Speaker B: That's what we'll do.
[01:00:08] Speaker A: Okay.
[01:00:08] Speaker B: All right. I love it. Good. One more actions. We figured it out on the fly. Cheers.
[01:00:12] Speaker A: Cheers.
[01:00:13] Speaker B: Thanks, Tommy.
