Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: This is neither a. Neither a Tuesday nor a morning nor a late one.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: But that's how that's, that is part of, as we've talked about, that is part of not running and doing a podcast full time, working a business, being in the trenches of running a business. So we just have to figure out when we can get it in during the week. But I think the one thing I know not, I think the one thing we're committed to is 100% staying on a cadence, filming weekly, releasing weekly. And as we know, podcasts are all about consistency in driving subscribers viewerships. And we mentioned it on the beginning of maybe two episodes ago. But if you do enjoy this, if you do listen, if you are consistent with us, we would absolutely love a follow a, like a subscriber on YouTube, Spotify, Amazon, whatever, because that just lets us know we've got some people that are staying consistent. And it's not what this is about. I think you and I have definitely determined, like, this is great for our relationship. Hopefully we can give some motivation, some education, talk about how we screwed up along the way, but certainly that extra.
Is it incentive? I guess, like knowing people are listening along with us. And it's great to see that no human being would disagree. We all want to be doing things with other people and enjoying it together.
[00:01:38] Speaker A: Yeah. I think there's a motivation, internal, and then an inspiration. A lot of the conversations that I have with people about their experience of our podcast is that was so inspiring. I really needed that. I was talking to one of our great friends, Nicole lynch today, and she said, God, I promised to listen so many times I get sidetracked. And Nicole is one of those badass females that we talk about. And I said, okay, go right to episode 17. You can backtrack for the other ones, but you are going to love episode 17. I promise you, if you give it the 58 minutes that you will come out ready to run through a wall, and then you'll be really inspired to go back and listen to one through 16. So that 17th one that we dropped, I think is some of our best work and something we're both super passionate about as it relates to the inner workings of male and female and how we can become a much better country society if we will not just embrace but lean into the other 50%.
We can't do it without 100% of our people completely on board and celebrated. Right? Not just accepted. I think celebrated is an even more important word than accepted.
[00:02:51] Speaker B: Yeah, but regardless of topic, we're just getting more comfortable and better at doing this. Everything is about consistency and practice. We know that. It's no secret the mundanety of excellence, of excellence, of excellence.
If we don't look back at this in a year, we freaking sucked. Then we have not been doing a very good job of getting better. We should look back at this episode and be like, it was horrible. So the point we got off into a ramp and my point was we will squeeze it in any way we want, any way we can. I should say we're very dedicated to it. But being on one cadence is hard within our work schedule.
So we had a very interesting. We talk about emerging thought leaders a lot. And we've got a group, a combined APC, TCS, Tagler Construction, Arnold packaging group. It's not just younger employees. It's also new employees coming together once a month for breakfast. And one person presents a certain topic, usually backed by a TED talk or a video. And then we just have an open discussion about this particular topic, how people feel. And it's two things. I think it's one way to really. Well, it's more than two things, but one way to really connect with your colleagues and your teammates and open up and be a little bit more vulnerable and talk about things that are not necessarily work related. It's definitely a bonding for you and I. It's absolutely a learning experience where we can learn about our teammates, what they're feeling, what they want for us. If we're not listening, we're absolute morons. I mean, the whole point is to understand your teammates better so we can build organizations that support how they're feeling, what they want, all of those things. So it's really beneficial in many ways, but a lot of the times we play off of very recent things and the topics that we talked about is something I think a lot of people would get a lot out of. And do you want to. I'm going to punt to you because I've been talking for way too long here how the meeting started, which isn't really what I think what we got into about the younger generation and what they can bring to the workplace, even if they don't quite have. Well, they won't have the experience, the wisdom. There's a lot of other things that they do really well that they can bring to organizations and that we need to be aware of and tap.
I think that's what we want to focus on, but it's not necessarily where that conversation started. So you want to touch on all of it?
[00:05:31] Speaker A: Part of it, yeah, I think so. Kaylin did a heck of a job. And usually there's some research that's done on a particular topic. Like you said, ted talks. And we started talking about the way the newer generations to the workforce, Generation Z, which is a lot of the individuals in that room, how they learn. And there were some comparisons and even some graphs and charts that compared boomers and how their lives typically went, working alone versus in a more social environment. And by working alone, I'm not talking about remote work. I think that's something that I was a little off on.
[00:06:12] Speaker B: I was tripping on that when I.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: Was trying to sort the data out to understand what we were talking about. It was really just more about. It had nothing to do with being at work versus not being at work. It was not about that. It was about what work in general looked like 30 years ago, when boomers, if you will, were running the businesses or the largest part of the population in the workforce. That's a great way to say it. And how they worked versus what work looks like now inside the office. The collaborative component versus being head down.
[00:06:46] Speaker B: Doing on your inside or outside the office.
[00:06:49] Speaker A: I don't even know if that matters.
[00:06:51] Speaker B: But it does matter, because so many people are working remotely.
[00:06:54] Speaker A: Yeah, agree.
But I think what the general overtone of the data was suggesting, that there's a lot more collaboration now than there in this generation. And they seek it out and prefer. Embrace it. Yes. More than head down in your corner, whether that was an office, a desk, or whatever. And that's really what it was driving to. And then that started a conversation that talked about learning. And the idea was, what started the great part of the really valuable and intriguing for me, part of the conversation was how our emerging thought leader, teammates experience learning as a kid. Right. And how their learning was generally off of an iPad or a device or some kind, where they were given this device that really was a gateway to whatever they wanted to do, they could go anywhere on this device. And how it evolved out of being what looked like exclusively entertainment for me as a kid that played Atari, it was exclusively entertainment. And now.
[00:08:03] Speaker B: Or pong.
[00:08:04] Speaker A: Or pong? Pong. I played pong. Yeah, that was cutting edge when I was a child, 100 years ago.
And just this idea of being able to learn in a very different way, that really opened my eyes to understanding what they were talking about. And then someone brought up the idea that they struggled in school, that school wasn't. And by the way, a very intelligent person in the room was making these comments, but how they struggled in school. And I thought, wow, you don't have it wrong. Schools got it wrong in that particular moment. And that just brought me into the idea of, we had this conversation, then brought it up and said, that's so interesting that you say that, because as people that are responsible for hiring or adding to our teams, it's so much harder now to be able to identify aptitude. The old standards of grades. Right? What's your GPA? With all due respect, who gives a shit, really? Like, who cares? That's such a poor measurement of intelligence anymore that it's really opened my eyes, and I know your eyes as it relates to trying to understand who people are and what their aptitude is and ultimately the contribution they can make to your organization. And that's the road that we went down that I absolutely loved and was so eye opening for me.
[00:09:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And we got into all kinds of topics, including people right out of high school, going into trade schools.
My thought on this is, I love the idea of, I'm not against college. I'm really not. I wish it would change, but if somebody wants to go to college, I support that. I would also love, if I had a daughter, say, Olivia, if she said to us, I really would love to go right into working for somebody right out of high school, I would be thrilled about that. I really believe there's so much learning in experiential. And I heard on a podcast the other day, this guy was talking super successful, was horrific at school, and he said if he had any advice to a young person that wanted to just go work right away, instead of going to get a formal, as we call it, formal education, he would say, go to a cutting edge, probably in the tech space startup, because you get to see that it's small enough where you're personal, you're seeing the inner workings, you're working very closely with the decision makers, but you also are going to see all the downsides of what they do wrong. And if they fail, you're young and you don't have many obligations where you can just go do something else. I think you could also take that selfishly. I have a young company, like working for me or somebody like you, that's got, while you're a 90 year old company, you've got almost a startup in your automation side, a startup in a tech company. So I will say for us, it's like, young people could come work for us. Hopefully you're not seeing all the downsides, but I think that's, like, beautiful advice as opposed to, I'm not saying you can't get great experience working for an Amazon or an apple, but you just aren't as close.
You're not seeing the decisions get made. You're not in that room. You just aren't as up close and personal. So that was something really fascinating to me. And the more I thought about it, that's really good advice. I think I would give the same advice when I look at what I learned in college. It wasn't what I learned from sitting in a lecture. It was what I learned from being on the soccer field. It was what I learned from the relationships with my teammates and people.
That's what I got out of school more than anything.
[00:11:58] Speaker A: Right now that we're in the people business, it's very obvious and evident how beneficial that was in having that exposure. And coming from parents that were incredibly social, they were very active and generally had other people around. So there were lots of opportunities to build those muscles, the communication muscles, the ability to understand people and hopefully communicate with them better because you had exposure to a wider range of people. And unfortunately, at least in the way education works now, that's not a component that's as valued or at least it doesn't show up in GPA.
I'm so far away from school now and like you, trying to figure it out, right. As far as how to value incoming candidates and what. Right. Looks like engineering and accounting, there are definitely certain components of career and career readiness that are still mandatory. We were in a room full of engineers, of three of our ETL teammates.
[00:13:08] Speaker B: Are engineers or doctors or you got to go to med school.
[00:13:12] Speaker A: Accountants and lawyers and. Yeah, there are certain pieces. Absolutely, positively. Our daughter wants to be a veterinarian. Right. I mean, there's very clear cut clinical, if you will, but have to be.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: There for Brooke, who is our daughter that's going to be a veterinarian. Do you think she's getting more experience from being in the clinics, from being. She's got three jobs. If you asked her, which we're going to ask her, what she learns more from doing her work or being in school, what do you think she's going to say?
[00:13:44] Speaker A: I imagine she's going to say that.
[00:13:46] Speaker B: And she's really academic, though, so that's also.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: No, but I think she was going to say that neither would be as valuable without the other in that moment. I think if I was experiencing what she would like, our automation team. Yeah. She wouldn't answer.
[00:14:01] Speaker B: I know, exactly.
[00:14:02] Speaker A: I would text her, but she wouldn't answer. I hope you're listening. This Brooke, that she would say that there's a connect the dots component of it where there's that clinical and classroom component, but then she gets to go and deploy that in real life, working in the clinic or on the horse farm or in the pathology lab where you read books about bloodslides and then you go watch the cells in action on a bloodslide. So I would think she would talk about connecting the dots component of that, which is what we talk about a lot around here in any number of situations where I'll say, you're going to have to have a little bit of knowledge here, otherwise you won't have any ability to connect the dots. So I think that's important, and I think that's what she would probably say as it relates to what she's getting out of one and the other and getting all of that to be congruent, and then she can hopefully deploy it in a very effective way.
[00:14:53] Speaker B: We're going to find out.
[00:14:54] Speaker A: Yeah, we are.
[00:14:55] Speaker B: We definitely will. It's interesting because when I'm looking at candidates, and I have been recently, we're bringing in new talent now as we grow more ferociously than we have in this whole seven years in the last year, and we'll continue to do that.
And I'm thinking to myself, when I've had the last three hires I've had across the table from me, I don't think when they sat down I remembered where they went to school or even if they went to school, I knew what they did experience wise and who they worked for, because I was looking for two of my hires, I was looking for newer to the industry, but still had a little bit of experience. One of them, I was looking for someone to come in with experience right away so I could tell you what they did and where they worked. Education, I'm not sure I knew when they sat down. So I look at it way differently. And maybe it's because that's how I learned. And you know that you're a visual learner, right? I actually don't dumb dumb me. Maybe I just don't get introspective enough on this. I don't really know how I learn. Like, if you asked me, what way do you learn? I would have a very hard time telling you. I'm not sure. But the more I think about it, I have to be in it and do.
You could show me something I could watch, but it still doesn't resonate with me completely unless I'm in it and doing, I have learned. So these last seven years of being in my business and doing, I have learned way more than all of my years of education. Not even close. And I think it's because that is how I learn. So maybe I am, for lack of a better word, judging the person sitting across from me from how much experience did you get? Because I equate that to learning.
That's not necessarily right, but that's just how I have learned. So I'm like, well, if they've got a lot of experience, they've probably learned a lot, too.
[00:16:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:51] Speaker B: Right or wrong.
[00:16:52] Speaker A: And I remember that got a conversation going. So our younger teammates were talking about, for example, having grown up as digital natives, just Google and searching for things. Let me back up and say it differently when the need for information arises.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: This was interesting. Yeah.
[00:17:13] Speaker A: Their approach is completely different. Right.
The idea of going to Google or YouTube. Right. Number one and number two, search engines on earth is muscle memory. It is completely part of their psyche as it relates to information availability, where some of our older, more experienced teammates, that doesn't even occur to them. It's just not ingrained that way. So case in .1 of our favorite teammates said, I really didn't learn anything in college. That's exactly what she said. And one of our brightest and most capable, and just went on to add on to that and say, what I've really learned is the human component, and I've figured out where I fit in, in the organization by helping people get where they want to go. And it might be as simple as.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: She said, bridging in the gap. Bridging the gap, which I can't let go of that because I want to get into this more a little later.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: Yeah. And she did. She said bridging the gap.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: She meant between generations, really, she did.
[00:18:14] Speaker A: The specific example she gave was one of our older teammates had a question and presented it to her and she immediately went to Google, the same Google he had access to on his computer and presented the information back to him and then showed him and talked him through something else that he was struggling.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: One of them was a Fitbit.
Someone had a Fitbit and didn't. Knew a little bit about it, but didn't know how to download, couldn't get a sync, like, stuff like that. She's like, one of your guys that has been here a while working in the back, would write everything on paper. She showed him how to translate, I mean, translate that to email, and if you haven't done it, you haven't done it. I mean, that sounds trivial to some people. But if you've been doing the same thing for 20 years, so coming in and being somebody that can just bridge that gap or be a liaison, that is such a value add to a company.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Yeah, no, absolutely.
[00:19:09] Speaker B: And she doesn't have more wisdom or knowledge. All these people have 20 years more industry knowledge. But she comes in and immediately, maybe consciously, maybe unconsciously, but identified a value add role. She does a lot more than bridge the gap, clearly.
[00:19:26] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:19:26] Speaker B: But she's very good at what she does and has a lot of industry knowledge, too, but not as much as them. So she comes in and identifies, like, I can be really helpful here. And then also on top of that, I mean, talk about team, the rapport that that establishes with your teammates and the trust and everything you're looking for in building a culture as an employer.
[00:19:45] Speaker A: Yeah. And that got us on to. I think you asked the question to the group was stop and give it some thought for a moment. Despite being new to business and the business, what can you add? And that was on the back of Lynette's comments. What can you add?
[00:20:04] Speaker B: One thing I added to that, and I said, because one reason Mick and I really want to know this is so we can. I don't know if you and I necessarily do as good a job. I know we don't. Of leveraging what you guys are really good at doing because we simply don't know. And they could be sitting in a room thinking, well, I could freaking help with that. But we don't know that. So this is selfishly for us to take and execute on, right?
[00:20:32] Speaker A: Yeah. The simple answer was one of our teammates said, I can find things. Right.
And because of growing up or having been associated with those search tools, just like Google, the ability to find information, the investigative and research component that they're very, very good at is something they can add value immediately to any number of parts, whether it's guys on the operations, teams that haven't had that exposure. Simple things like email, learning to communicate more effectively, and all of that is personal productivity. The guy sending an email versus, I promise you, if he wrote it on paper, he walked it up to the front. All of the things that go into that and that spurred the conversation around the types of information that are out there and proprietary being some of it.
What we do in certain spots is proprietary. You're not going to find it out there. Certain things that we make or certain things that are very industry specific could be about working with a machine, programming a machine. Certain techniques that we use in packaging to make the things that we make, those are proprietary. So those will be situations where some of those newer, less experienced teammates will have to lean heavily on someone with more experience. They're going to have to go find and get their arms around that proprietary information, where their contribution back to the organization can be in helping to master or identify or investigate all of that information that's not proprietary. And that's really what it came down to. And the general crux of what they could really contribute is helping to harness availability of some of the information that's less proprietary.
[00:22:10] Speaker B: What I found very interesting was not so we're talking about the ability to use technology, but that wasn't necessarily it. It's the ability to know what to ask when you're using the technology or how to utilize it. And someone made the comment, my mom and I could be looking for the same information, but what she's going to ask versus I'm going to ask are two different things, and I'm going to get from a to b much quicker than she is. So that's so true. It's not just about I could know how to use Google and so could somebody else, but they could be way more efficient at getting the information they need, extracting it quicker. And that leads to the next point. Okay, so what can that Gen Z and also millennials, I mean, there were a lot of similarities.
Another advantage bringing to it so they don't have to go to, as we were talking about, go to somebody else, disrupt them while they're doing their work, and say, hey, John, I need to lean on you and your experience for something that's not proprietary and teach me this. They can take three minutes to go find it themselves. They don't have to go disrupt somebody else. Then all of a sudden, it's more productive time effective time efficient than anything else. Like they're not wasting extra minutes trying to find it, disrupting somebody. So that in itself is a huge advantage for a company. And then the other thing we started to talk about was, you mentioned you were hitting on a lot yesterday. It was go, I cannot google. How does Arnold packaging do this? Like, this very specific thing? Someone that's new to your organization has to be in it. They have to see it, they have to be hands on, they have to experience it, which I love, because as we were talking about, I love the fact that somebody can sit behind a computer here, remotely, wherever you are, learn, add to the organization. I also love that it's required for an employee that you have to be in the office too. With the people learning hands on. And the second that's no longer needed, it worries me, because what happens to the relationships that we value so much? Is that ever going to be replaced? Could you ever sit remotely behind a computer and learn everything you needed to know?
Probably not, but I don't know. I mean, things evolve and change so freaking quickly, but maybe this is just the old person and me speaking. I love that we need both now that they're both so critical to the success of an organization.
[00:24:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it would come down to how much of that proprietary information is communicated directly and how much of it's communicated indirectly. So if you are remote, for example, and that proprietary information is communicated very directly, then that's fine, that would work, right? You would get what you needed. But I would suggest around here, there's a tremendous amount of that proprietary information that is communicated by happenstance osmosis, in spots. You hear it, you overhear it, you see it, you get to physically participate in it, or you see a demonstration of it. So I would say, depending on how much of that proprietary information is moving indirectly, is going to have the biggest effect on how fast you get up to speed and can be effective as it relates to your organization. So I would imagine that industries or companies that have less proprietary information, I don't know what that is. Right. What's a level of. Or. I imagine all companies that are successful have a certain amount of what I'll call secret sauce. And if that's what proprietary is, then the more secret sauce it takes to deliver your differentiator, the tougher it's going to be to get indoctrinated into that organization. And I don't know, maybe some of them are amazing at having all of that proprietary stuff under control and able to spoon feed it to their newer participants and their newer employees. And there's no drop off. Regardless, I don't experience us to be that way. I think a decent or a significant amount of that proprietary information is moved indirectly in and around, or for being around or listening to a conversation, watching something. I think a lot of that is moving indirectly, which would have a huge effect on where you are.
[00:26:40] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I'm about to debate myself. I just love it and be on the other side of the table. Because as you're talking, I'm thinking to myself, I think it's really industry specific. Because for what you guys do, I do think a lot of it is required to be in the back with your manufacturing and your distribution. But for what I do, we aren't making things. We are not a manufacturer like you guys. You're making things. We're not. We're a distributor.
So as I'm bringing new employees on, we're really lean. I need to figure how to indoctrinate them or get them up to speed quickly. So I've been identifying new technology to be able to do that. One being I don't know if it's new, but I just identified it's new to me looms. So it's the video where I can take them. I'm giving them tutorials, so I'm going through the screen and showing them how I'm doing stuff. But also I'm talking on the side.
So anything I want to do, it's like a video tutorial, but also very personal because I'm also talking in the corner, I'm pointing things out.
You get captioning all kinds of stuff, and I have utilized that to spoon feed it. And whenever they get a chance, whenever they're coming up with that task and they don't know how to do it, they can pull that looms video up and watch it. So that's certainly a technique where if it's something specialized to tagler, where they can't just watch a general tutorial online, they can pull that up.
So, I mean, there are certainly ways to do it. But my other argument, maybe that's a little bit more collaborative sometimes, but not really. I mean, they could be watching a video that I shot a year ago, but it's a really good way for an employer to capture all this content. And even if it's proprietary stuff too, where you've got this like a library of content, you onboard, and they're just going into these looms video and learning.
[00:28:35] Speaker A: Themselves, I think the proprietary components or make loom beautiful, that's exactly the type of things that I believe you'd want to get into that platform and make available, right? I mean, I think the proprietary stuff.
[00:28:50] Speaker B: Is beautiful for that platform, but then you're going against what we're talking about here is needing to be in the office working with people.
I think we're coming to the point where you probably don't learn everything. Proprietary.
[00:29:05] Speaker A: No, that's not where I'm going at all, where I'm.
[00:29:08] Speaker B: But it's a fact.
[00:29:09] Speaker A: What I'm saying is that because I've had a lot of thoughts about our training priorities since we had that meeting the other day, and really just the idea that we should be very intentional about understanding what parts of our business are proprietary. And then once you do that, then I think the next step is to identify the most efficient ways to deliver it. So what I'm saying is that I think loom, for example, there's lots of platforms like that, but I think loom for certain proprietary components is a beautiful platform. And if you're in a business that doesn't have a manufacturing component or a maker, then maybe loom handles all of your proprietary needs. And that would be fantastic.
[00:29:49] Speaker B: Or scary, because then you don't need to collaborate or scary.
[00:29:52] Speaker A: Yeah, but again, I wouldn't think that just because that would be information and only information. I think there's other benefits to the presence, but it's completely changed my thinking, or it's made me consider my thinking about how we train differently. I never stopped to think about segmenting information between proprietary and non proprietary, and how to lean into delivery of the proprietary components that are part of the secret sauce delivery of Arnold packaging or Arnold automation.
[00:30:26] Speaker B: I think at least I'm using the term proprietary way too liberally, or maybe incorrectly. For me, it's not proprietary. For me, it's just anything that is special to our business, that's exactly what proprietary is. Okay. But I would look at it differently. I think if you look up the definition of proprietary either way, I don't know what the formal, definite. That's what I mean. So just something that's even, even if it's a mainstream construction protocol, a little nuance that we have on it inside of our. We call it tigglerizing it inside of our business.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: Yeah. I think I would just use. So, just to get this out for everybody who's watching, I would consider proprietary things that just generally weren't available everywhere else. Right. That you wouldn't easily find. The thing I was thinking about, too, when you were talking about Melissa, who was talking about how she and her mother Google something and she gets there much faster, it was something that occurred to me, and I've always said along the way, it's easier to ask than think. And I would say that in a very frustrating way, when I would be out in the field for a number of days, I'd come back and sit at my desk and I would find this endless parade in front of my door while I was there. And I thought, oh, my gosh, it hasn't stopped. Were you holding these questions for me? What were you doing in my absence? What if I never came back? What was going to happen with the answers to these questions?
This group or these younger individuals? Willingness and really just second motion to go look. Right. It's the exact opposite of standing in front of someone's door. They would attempt to figure it out using all of the general information that's available, and then when they failed and still didn't get what they want, then they would come and stand in front of the door, and that could actually be viewed.
If you didn't consider it, that could actually be viewed as a lack of engagement. Like, how come no one stands in front of my door anymore? Because they're using all the tools that they have to not waste your time and not waste their time. That's a beautiful thing, but it could be looked as a lack of engagement.
[00:32:32] Speaker B: But that's what we were talking about, not having to disrupt somebody because you figure it out. That figure it out factor.
[00:32:39] Speaker A: That's my point, though. Imagine that you never came down the hall and stood in front of my door. I'd be like, what's wrong with britt? She never comes down and engages anymore. Meanwhile, she's just over there being productive as hell, which is actually what I want.
[00:32:49] Speaker B: No, I'd be ecstatic about that. I know if you tied them together, you would. Yeah, exactly.
So where was I going? Yeah. And I think everybody just wants to shit on the younger generation. They hide behind technology.
But that's so not true. That's such a negative way to look at it. I mean, bringing in young people to the organization can do. We need all kinds, all generations, all people. But they have so much to bring. If we focus just like, on any other generation that has their struggles, if we focus on the negative, yeah, we're going to find it. But if we look at everything they can bring to the table, and I don't even know that we identify or utilize as much as we can, but I don't just want to beat. We all know younger people are better at technology. Like, duh, they grew up with that, of course. But just beyond that, beyond just leveraging the technology, what can they do? And that's why Lynette's comment about bridging the gap was so intriguing to me, because that's taking it one step further. That's taking it because I have this skill set. I can bridge the gap between my teammates or something that they do that they can be better at. So that's what I was looking for. I wasn't looking for, we know the technology, we can deploy it, or I was looking for more. And that's why I love that answer so much, because it was one of the few I felt like that was beyond just utilizing. I know that if we've looking at utilizing technology, I know who I'm going to. I do. I know they can help.
[00:34:26] Speaker A: Right.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: But I want more than that.
[00:34:27] Speaker A: Sure.
Trying to think of some of the answers. So in the general technology piece, the bridging, the gap piece from Lynette was next level. It was like, ah, this is like a super aha moment for us.
[00:34:39] Speaker B: I think one of the things, I was taking a different angle on it, and I said, I think one of the things that your generation, your collective generation can bring to the table is the ability to level the playing field. And I want to extend even more than I said in that meeting. So what I meant by that, and we've talked about this before, is that there's a lot of. I'll talk about construction, my industry, so there's only 11% of construction is females. And a lot of the reason for that is in the past, you were in the field, you were relying on brute strength or the ability to use your body, your physical body to perform these tasks.
Genetically, males are stronger. And so the advantage was, did go to males. And you could probably put that in the manufacturing space if you're online, if you're carrying heavy, whatever that looks like. But there are similar industries. Similar. But that's slowly not becoming an advantage anymore because add in technology, we have been able to input technology in places where we're not relying on brute strength anymore or the things that would give one gender an advantage over the other one. So all of a sudden, this generation is coming in with in a position where it doesn't matter what you look like, it doesn't matter what body parts you have, you can go in and perform and make a difference immediately that playing field is level. Taking that even a step further, you could talk.
You know, Tommy is new here, and he doesn't have the wisdom, but he's much faster at learning because he knows how to use all the tools. So that learning curve is going to be expedited, where he could come into a company and be there for one year and know as much as Sally, who's been there for ten, so there's no disadvantage anymore. All of a sudden, you can be competitive immediately with the tools that are coming out, which is so exciting.
[00:36:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And that got us into a conversation because I remember our last podcast and we started talking about, that was the one we were talking about males and females and being very intentional about leveraging our entire population base and talking about. And we've got two very talented female mechanical engineers who are programmers like, we just had customers in here, and they ran the demonstrations of robots moving products from point a to point b, which is exactly what they were supposed to do. And we were talking about trades as part of the conversation, and how some of our younger teammates had friends that decided to skip college as their choice and go directly into the trades and what the outcomes were. And that got us onto a conversation about capitalism and how money is going to flow and affect that. I mean, it will be. There's just certain jobs that are no longer attractive that no one wants to do, that have to be done right. And manufacturing and construction are two big industries where that's happening all the time, where people don't want to. The newer, younger generations may not be interested in working on a production line or doing some of those more manual tasks that would happen in manufacturing and construction, but they have to get done. So we talked about the trades, right? You can make a hell of a lot of money as an electrician or a plumber, and that's simply by virtue of the demand for those skills has not changed, but the supply has come down significantly. It's just economics 101 that will never change. And now we have all the demand, and maybe even more. If you look at all of the things that's going on in electrical and smart homes and low voltage and your garage door, talking to your coffee maker, that demand actually could even be increasing, not decreasing. We know supply is absolutely decreasing. So the pay and the payment for being in the trades is higher. And now for us to be able to compete in manufacturing, we're going to have to rely on robotics and different things. And now when it comes to programming, it doesn't matter what your gender is in that moment, you can be anything you want to be. And if you are better at teaching that machine to do a job, then you are of incredible value and command compensation that is commensurate with that value. And that's something that's leveling all of this and this learning component. I was talking to James. One of our newer teammates has been kind enough to run the podcast. We have a guest producer today, James Dugan, everybody.
And in talking to James, I mean, it's amazing the number of sales calls that I had to make, for example, over the years to get into these manufacturing plants and visually, personally see a production line or how things were being made. I can give James twelve manufacturers names and turn him loose on YouTube. And he'll ask me, because I call it jumping down the rabbit. Hole. But he can go and start bouncing from manufacturer, watch more videos like this. If you're willing to spend a few hours, you can see anything made that you want to see made. Either a video from the company that is doing the automation of it, or the company that's making the thing using the automation and got that ability to learn and consume and talk about closing the gaps where my 30 years of experience in going from place to place, James can catch up to me at light speed and saying, oh, yeah, I know how that's made because I watched a video on it where I had to personally go and experience and collect all of that detail myself, which, good.
[00:40:26] Speaker B: And bad, at both good. It expedites the learning curve. And any young person that's not doing that won't be the best. They just won't.
[00:40:34] Speaker A: No, not exclusively.
[00:40:36] Speaker B: Well, they will not compete with the top tier. Just won't. But you don't generate the relationships that you inevitably generate.
[00:40:45] Speaker A: That's true. But if I had a choice, if I could go back and do it again, we talked about with Brooke that connect the dots moment. So my job now is to send James down the rabbit hole of Fannick robotics, and then when he and I go into the field together and then Experience Fannick robotics, there's going to be a dot connecting event that's going to be way more influential than the way I had to do it. That's the component that I would have valued so much. Like Brooke, for example, being able to tie her clinical experience into working in the pathology lab. Yeah, that's what I think. Right?
[00:41:16] Speaker B: Looks like it is. But there is something to be said about learning from a person. I mean, people want to teach and you build this certain relationship when you're teaching someone else.
That's just the reality. But I totally agree. If you're having to choose between the two, where are you going to go?
[00:41:34] Speaker A: I wouldn't. You'd want both, right? I mean, I'm going to teach you.
[00:41:36] Speaker B: No, I mean, the way you had to do it or the way chase can do it.
[00:41:40] Speaker A: Yeah. My job will be to teach the nuances. Right. And go back to that word proprietary again, the pieces that you're just not going to pick up, having limited information on the topic. That was the other part. We talked about our meeting the other day. It's hard to know what to Google if you have no freaking idea what you're talking about at all. You don't even know where to start. So I can at least say, okay, start here. Here's these twelve manufacturers names. Now you go get dirty and video land here, and then I'm going to take you to the three dimensional world and teach you the nuanced and proprietary components of this. And hopefully that'll tie it all together for you.
[00:42:18] Speaker B: Yes. And let's be clear here.
We are not suggesting that the younger generation is better or that that's only what we're seeking or anyone else should be seeking inside of their organization.
There is just so much wisdom and experience and leadership and other components to somebody that's been in the industry a long time and might not be as technologically savvy.
[00:42:46] Speaker A: Right.
[00:42:47] Speaker B: Every person that comes into the organization is valued in a different way. We're simply pointing out. I'm not sure. We're always talking about and celebrating what the younger generation can do. And by the way, if you're an employer listening to this, so I'll talk about myself.
For me, I'm millennial, so I do know a lot about technology. I don't know as much as somebody that's in their 20s, certainly, especially, like, young to mid 20s, but I do know a lot. So I'm in an interesting position where I grew up on a technology where I'm very good at it. And that could lead me to be a little bit naive, or not naive, cavalier in thinking that I know enough, I know how to utilize it and make our company great, because you've got to adopt the technology or you're going to be left in the dust.
But I really want to be conscious about not doing that. And that is going to mean not exclusively, but somewhat relying on those younger teammates to bring the new stuff to the table and listen and not be a hard headed asshole that just thinks you know best. I think you're better equipped to do that because of the generation, you know what you don't know. Whereas a millennial, I could pretend that I know enough, right? And I don't.
[00:44:16] Speaker A: I think that's where it's important. Business 101 conversation. That's where it is so critical to have all of those alliances in play. We were talking, we had a visit from the National association of Wholesalers, and one of the big takeaways. I'm like, all right, what's the benefit or what's the attraction for me to be part of this? Well, one of the attractions was they have a component that's out looking at cutting edge distribution technology, right? So those alliances become so strong to make sure that you're not missing the opportunities.
For me individually, we have 800 customers that are really good at what they do. So by being able to go out into the field and watch what they're doing, you wouldn't necessarily consider that an alliance. But I get to watch the biggest and best companies in the 90 miles radius, blue chip organizations do what they do and think that could work at Arnold packaging. Now, sometimes I get back and when I do the investigation, it's not affordable yet. Right. That's one thing that does happen where I go to General Electric and I see this technology, it's like, oh, that's amazing. And it's not to the point where it's affordable for a company of our size. But I'm aware of it and I'm watching. Yeah, and I'm watching. I know if it does actually take effect or take hold, like AI in any number of spots, the cost curves will continue to bend and then we will be able to afford it at some point along the way. So that's where those alliances are critical in making sure that you don't miss the ball because you're so head down on doing what you do. Those alliances can really keep you out of trouble there.
[00:45:55] Speaker B: What I'm hearing is adopting best practices from other organizations. Yeah. And so younger employees and relying or collaborating is probably a better word with them. And then alliances also, if you're looking coaches consulting, I think the whole business coach, you know how we feel about.
[00:46:15] Speaker A: I'm watching you grimace in pain as you even form the word.
[00:46:19] Speaker B: Such bullshit so much and so overplayed, but not in all scenarios. I am big fans. You have a business coach who I do.
I'm not going down that road because we'll be here for another freaking day. But I think if you identify the alliances or the coach for that specific reason, like I need help here, I'm not afraid to say know we've been meeting with podcast consultants that can help us in certain parts. We don't know. We run businesses. We don't do podcasting. Certainly our producer Tommy's really good at the film aspect. That's what he does that he knows. But anything post production, we know nothing about.
We do very little things as a hobby. We want to be really good at it. We're committed. We treat this just like we do our businesses, very much so we are looking for in identifying a potential partner who can teach us specifically post production and how to do that on the podcast side. So if you're very aware in identifying it, then those relationships, connections, mentors, consultants, alliances, that's all part of this. As an employer, you have to lean on those. If you think you can do it yourself, you probably won't have a business in five to ten years.
[00:47:34] Speaker A: Well, I think bringing this back to.
[00:47:35] Speaker B: Our original, not a competitive one.
[00:47:37] Speaker A: Yeah, or maybe not profitable one.
[00:47:40] Speaker B: Talk about hobby.
[00:47:41] Speaker A: Bringing this full circle.
The aha moment for me was, and I think I even phrase it as a question sometimes, as I will, when I'm trying to get input from whichever teammates. But this room in this day was while I don't, you know, someone new to the organization, while I don't have a lot of proprietary knowledge yet, I can still be incredibly valuable to the organization because. Or by. And what would you fill in there? And we filled in a bunch of those, and this is another one of those, right? I mean, your younger teammates can be working on things, right, if you don't know about it yet at all. Clearly, it's not proprietary to your organization, so there's a component that they can fill to be out there looking for, helping to identify those best practices, even though they don't have all the proprietary. What if they actually looked at an industry next door or tangent to your industry and said, I don't know, but over there they do that, and you'd be like, holy hell. I never even stopped to look over there because I'm so head down in this and so locked in on the proprietary stuff that we call secret sauce. I didn't know they were doing it better right over there. So that's a role that can be played by your newer and maybe younger, maybe not. But back to that comment about being better at the technology side, maybe that's a huge role to play, even though they haven't mastered the proprietary yet.
[00:49:02] Speaker B: Yeah, fresh eyes, new perspective. Maybe a little.
[00:49:09] Speaker A: Naivete.
[00:49:11] Speaker B: I can't even say it, even though you just said it.
[00:49:13] Speaker A: It's french.
[00:49:13] Speaker B: But, you know, I was intending to use the word.
[00:49:17] Speaker A: I do. Yeah, of course.
[00:49:18] Speaker B: But here is my devil James over.
[00:49:22] Speaker A: There, laughing at you.
[00:49:23] Speaker B: Devil's advocate, which I said. I said evil's dad, last episode. Even notice.
So here's what I would say about this, which I make sure my younger teammates are very aware of. And I have one younger teammate. God bless. He came in thinking he was going to change the world in our organization. But here's where this gets challenging. What you're talking about deploying that as a younger, newer employee, when you don't know anything about the industry or the organization, you can't identify what would even begin to look helpful. So he came in thinking he was going to add all these new protocols and procedures, I'm like, this has nothing to do with our business, or stop wasting your time. I need you to learn the foundations and the basics of being a project manager. Right.
Part of me, I didn't want to break his spirit because I loved the coming in, want to adding value, like wanting to be creative. But all I wanted him to do was learn how to be a great project manager, the very basics for two years, then coming in and bringing in, knowing enough where you could potentially bring. So that's a really hard balance, and I noticed that. So I do want younger employees to know that it's still a one a learn, become really good at your role and the basics, because you can start tripping on, like, what's the value? I can add and get frantic and like, oh, my God, I want to add something new. And that can disrupt your actual, just, like, learning process of what you were brought in to do.
[00:50:57] Speaker A: Yeah, squirrel syndrome.
[00:50:59] Speaker B: 100%.
[00:51:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:01] Speaker B: With all the good intention in the world.
[00:51:02] Speaker A: Absolutely. And up to a point, as employers, we recognize that as well intended, you're like, oh, I appreciate the effort. I see what you're trying to do here. But after a while, it can become even disruptive. It goes in the opposite direction. So you definitely have to commit to the proprietary component too.
[00:51:19] Speaker B: Like, you have to learn that to an employer eventually. It becomes super frustrating at the end because the job is not getting done right. And when that starts to happen, you have to make a decision. Once you continue to have that conversation, it doesn't work. So I just want somebody that's listening to this to be very mindful of that as well. If you can do a little bit of both, great. But first, just learn your basic role.
[00:51:44] Speaker A: Right. Well, just by virtue of being in business for seven years or 90 years, probably reinventing the wheel isn't necessary.
[00:51:51] Speaker B: I think maybe there's an in between.
[00:51:53] Speaker A: Yeah, you might inflate the tires a little bit, or you might find some things know, decrease friction in spots. Right. Less rolling resistance by inflating the tires. But a total redo is probably not necessary or the company would have failed.
[00:52:06] Speaker B: By now, but different. So I just made a new hire coming in with, on the accounting side, Marie coming in with a breadth of very similar experience in the construction, already doing accounting. So she is in a different position coming in because she can immediately make changes.
She already has industry. She's already done this 100 times a different way.
[00:52:29] Speaker A: Right.
[00:52:30] Speaker B: So for her, she can maybe reinvent the wheel a bit more. I don't know. That we need. Well, we could probably use a total overhaul, if I'm being honest.
Just recognize where you're coming in and where your most value add is. Milestones, people. Milestones, one at a time.
[00:52:49] Speaker A: But back to the employer side, too. I mean, it's incumbent upon us as employers to recognize that there is all of that value there and meet closer to the middle versus. No, you're going to have to work your way up to where I am. From a proprietary knowledge perspective. You're missing a huge opportunity to leverage their perspective just by virtue of them not being there that long. So it's really incumbent. I mean, my thought of leaving was, wow, I need to really be cognizant of. While we're working with our newer teammates on teaching them the proprietary, how can we really lean in and leverage all of the other things that they're good at, that investigative component that they're really good at. How can we speed their training in the proprietary? By leveraging how good they are at investigating things like that. Right here, James, go look up Fennec robots. And then I know you're going to find all their competitors along the way, and I know you're going to find people making things, and you're going to ultimately come across all the people making things, and you're going to come back to me pretty solid. You're going to have an idea of the competitive landscape, the type of jobs that are being done in manufacturing, using robots. So there's a piece of that. And freeing them up to probably have a much more direct control over their training and getting up to speed faster. That was one of my big takeaways.
[00:54:14] Speaker B: Yeah. I also would like to congratulate you because you have without question set the Guinness Book of World Record in the last 24 hours.
36 hours, 30 hours.
[00:54:29] Speaker A: Oh, I can't wait to hear what.
[00:54:30] Speaker B: This is of using the word proprietary more than anyone.
[00:54:33] Speaker A: Oh, whatever.
[00:54:37] Speaker B: Just saying congrats. Should we go out later and celebrate?
[00:54:40] Speaker A: No, because now I don't want to be near you. And I don't think I've ever said that.
[00:54:48] Speaker B: The closing thing, and these people have.
[00:54:49] Speaker A: Only listened to it for about 56.
[00:54:51] Speaker B: Minutes, and you still might have set the record.
[00:54:53] Speaker A: You know what, and I won't say it again. That's fine. You've cured me. I know what you're trying to do is cure me, and you have.
[00:54:57] Speaker B: No. I would have cured you off camera.
[00:54:59] Speaker A: It no, cure me on camera is exactly what would occur me, and you know it. Shit.
[00:55:06] Speaker B: The last thing I do want to talk about, and I want to know how you feel about, oh, no, I.
[00:55:09] Speaker A: Might be done already. My feelings are hurt.
[00:55:12] Speaker B: So as we're talking about this, the one thing I've really been thinking about is how you value and reward or regard somebody that's had a lot of tenure within your business. Now, that, to me, says a lot about loyalty, which I really respect. But I also don't know anymore if I'm going to say tenure or how long you've been with a company.
I don't know if I care.
I don't know how to put that. I care about loyalty just as much as anyone. That means so much to me, the loyalty, the trust. But if someone comes in that's young and new and is producing at a level that no one else is, I'm not going to hold them back from climbing the ladder and maybe above somebody else that's been here for ten years. And this is part of what we're talking about, the ability to do that with the tools available. So as an employer, I'm really looking, because if you're young and you come in and you crush, I think you should be rewarded. This goes back to eat what you kill mentality and work hard, produce.
I'm going to pay you whether it's compensation or whatever that looks like. We can talk about compensation.
You are going to be rewarded for that work, and you might be promoted with a title above somebody else that's been doing this for ten years. I really do look at it like that, but I never want to disregard somebody who has the time and effort and stuck by your side and trusted you maybe when the company was not doing so well. So how do we work to striking that balance of, I want to motivate the kid that's going to come in and crush, but I also want to be very respectful of the person that's been here that maybe isn't producing the same results. How do you do that? I don't have an answer. So I'm throwing a question at you unfairly. Where? I don't have a solution for this.
[00:57:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I'll tell you what I've demonstrated over the years, and that is a tricky one, because this topic can come off cold and callous as hell.
[00:57:26] Speaker B: But I just was very honest.
[00:57:27] Speaker A: No, and I'm going to stay on the transparent side, too, which could come off cold and callous.
I'm okay with that.
Definitely more. We're much more in tune with merit versus tenure. Right? I mean, what are you doing and how are you doing it? And I will tell you, we have outgrown people. I think that is part of, I'll say risk. I don't mean in a risky perspective, but those are the types of outcomes that can happen as you're growing and you are adopting technology. So we have adopted technology along the way, whether it be a new ERP system or certain what I would consider big leaps.
In 2013, we adopted our current ERP system, and we had two people fail out of the organization as a byproduct one. We literally took their green bar paper away, and it was crushing. It was absolutely bone crushing to not have a green bar report.
[00:58:24] Speaker B: I don't know what that is.
[00:58:26] Speaker A: Of course you don't. That's exactly my point. But when we would do analysis of purchasing demand, it actually ran on green bar paper, which you probably have to show you a picture, massive piece of paper that go through this big dot matrix printer and print it out. Of course, you don't know what it is because it has gone by way of the dinosaur for the most part. But that individual, when they can no longer run and have that green paper in their hand and they had to do the analysis on screen, they ultimately left the organization over it. And I would say that person self selected out, but we would have had to make a move. I mean, their performance dropped off at a level that was just not commensurate with what we needed to do and.
[00:59:05] Speaker B: Wasn'T willing to put the time in.
[00:59:06] Speaker A: To learn, just simply couldn't.
We went the effort route for quite some time, and then, I think simultaneously, we both realized that it wasn't going to work, and that individual left the organization. So, no, nothing is bigger than the mission, period. No one person is bigger than the mission. So while it would be painful and it would hurt terribly to let someone go that had been long tenured and demonstrated huge loyalty, nothing is bigger than the mission.
[00:59:41] Speaker B: So I want to interject. We're getting long here, but just a couple more things I do want to interject that nobody demonstrates. Nothing's bigger than the mission than you. And I have learned a lot from that. Initially, I've told you this, I'm not going to lie. I thought it was super cold blooded. I was like, this is not how I'm going to run things. But at the end of the day, this is one employee. You have 75 other ones where you're supporting them and their families and everything else.
So that overall mission always has to be a one out. So whether that means a one, a, whether that means firing somebody that you brought in that was a best friend of yours. Family, you will do it.
Listen, I still have my own thoughts about this, but I will say there's a way to do it. And with family, people say, don't hire family. And I have now learned that as long as you always keep a professional like you, and you say, listen, my parents will always tell me, don't bring in that person or don't think about. And I'm like, no, listen, I have learned, and this is by learning from you, how to run a business. And when you run it purely professionally, it doesn't matter who it is, even if you have to exit them out. It shouldn't change. It's hard, but shouldn't change that family relationship if you do it right. Because it's all about the mission. Everybody knows that from the beginning, and it's all professional. Doesn't always work out like that. It just doesn't. But you have been able to do that. Maybe it's just a lot of practice, but still, I think there are many people that have been doing it as long as you have or longer that are not able to execute like that.
[01:01:27] Speaker A: In closing, I will finish your sentence. I am willing to make that move when it becomes completely evident that there are no other options. And that's when it happens, right?
It's not lickety split. It's over a period of time when it becomes completely evident that there are no other options. And you're right. I have parted ways with relatives, and I parted ways with best friends in the business because nothing's bigger than the mission.
[01:01:52] Speaker B: Very last thing, because we have to talk about this. So how do you reward somebody that is really loyal and is stuck by you and the company and is still performing? Maybe they're not the best performer. Maybe they're being outperformed by other people, but they're still doing a good job. How do you recognize that? Because we have to.
[01:02:11] Speaker A: So, fortunately for us, we have a company that's growing, and it generally means that we are creating new positions and different types of positions. And in any number of situations, we've had the ability to move that person into an adjacent role, a support role, a very important role that's a little bit different than the one they had. Or in creating a new position, we brought someone in above that individual to take that new role that we have grown into as a company. But maybe that individual wasn't able to grow into on their own.
That would be an answer.
There's only two potentials in that moment. Find another place and if you can't, then they might have to exit the organization.
[01:02:57] Speaker B: So it's finding the best fit for them.
[01:02:59] Speaker A: Yes, absolutely.
You'd like to always be square peg, square hole, for sure. Well, that was interesting. We bounced around a little bit more than we typically do. But I think if I had to summarize this back, it would be how do you get the best out of everybody in your organization, regardless of how old they are or how long they've been there? And then towards the end of our conversation, and if you realize at some point that you're not able to do it, what do you do? How's that?
[01:03:28] Speaker B: Bang.
[01:03:29] Speaker A: Souped and nuts.
[01:03:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:03:30] Speaker A: All right. Good to see everybody, James. Thank you.
That's all right. No problem. Next time, we're going to do a later. We're going to do happy hour. I don't know. I don't pay attention to luck. We make our own luck here.
[01:03:41] Speaker B: Okay. We'll have vodka in these.
[01:03:42] Speaker A: Next we make our luck at the Love and business Khan podcast. Right.
[01:03:46] Speaker B: Thank you. Please subscribe.
[01:03:48] Speaker A: Yes, please subscribe. Hurry up.
