Episode Transcript
[00:00:10] Speaker A: So I wanted to start off today. I had a very cool experience this week, and certainly someone that's near and dear to your heart that we've talked about along the way. Nancy Grasmick funded a leadership institute up at Towson University. And we had, well, real quick, for.
[00:00:26] Speaker B: Everybody who's not from Baltimore may not know, give a five second or ten second on who Nancy Grasmick is and the things she's done.
[00:00:35] Speaker A: Yeah. So she was the former superintendent of schools for the state of Maryland and did wonderful work and is still to this day revered for what she did for Maryland's education system and still incredibly, incredibly involved, whether it's philanthropic.
[00:00:51] Speaker B: She's also on the, I don't know, this might be getting board of Kennedy Krieger or did a lot with Kennedy Krieger. And mind you, she's in her.
She's incredible.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: Yeah. So she, I learned this yesterday, too.
She funded personally the first two years of research that went into creating the curriculum at this particular program. So our director of engineering was nominated and accepted an opportunity for a nine month class on leadership. And I attended the graduation this week, which was fascinating. They had 19 or 20 in the cohort, and they get legitimate leadership coaching, which was really interesting to me, just for someone that obviously has a leadership role like you do, and just the idea that it's not something that people probably practice as much as they should. If you were going to be a great soccer player or pick your sport, right, you would be at your craft constantly or if you switch over to the military. Right. I mean, the old saying of when armies aren't at war, they train. Right. Because obviously the stakes couldn't be higher yet any number of things. We don't go at it that way. Right. I mean, why wouldn't you be like, well, God, yeah, of course I take extensive leadership or whether that's the personal development component or whatever. And the idea that simply the easiest definition I've ever heard of leadership is you are a leader if you have followers and the way they delve into the course and the idea that you would teach leadership, it's not innate. I think there are probably some natural born leaders or something along the way, but I also think there's a way to hone that craft to be better and help people around you get more out of themselves than they would on their own.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: So question for you, speaking of the innate, that was my next question. Do you believe it's more trained than innate? Because take a sport, for instance, innate athletic ability or trained like, that's the ongoing debate for days on. On anything, really. So you subscribe to the idea that it's more trained and learned leadership than it is innate or 50 50. What do you think?
[00:03:08] Speaker A: I think I do.
It's hard enough, I don't know that it's easy to put your fingers on or I just think about how you're grown up, for example, gun to head. Yeah.
I think it can be learned more than an age. I would go heavier on the learned side.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Learned more from childhood or in the type of scenario you're talking about right now.
[00:03:29] Speaker A: That's what I was just going towards because I think from childhood, too, I think your birth order probably is one of the things that has an early influence on it. That's interesting as far as first versus second versus third. And if you look at our three daughters, despite growing up under the same roof, being super tight, very unique characteristics about them.
And if you look at them from, if you just look at them and said, sum them up from a leadership perspective, they would have different skills, different superpowers, some strong one stronger than the other in this, but the other one in that. So I just think that maybe even starting off at birth, just your birth order would be an interesting. And coaching the girls through the way back to that. You're a leader. If you have followers, you could see the girls on the team that were leaders because you could see that they had followers. Right. It was really interesting in either because they were comfortable, they stepped up in a particular way, they had a confidence about them. I think that confidence component is a big driver in this. They had a confidence piece that was attractive to the other people. Like, I like what's going on over there. I'm going to follow Susie. She seems to get it or whatever. She's a good player, so on and so forth. But I think it's all part and parcel. But I also think, like everything else, when you get to the highest levels of competition, whether that be sports or so on or so forth, then you got to really dig in and lean into honing those skills in being the best. Right. And being able to compete in that fractional difference.
And I don't know that I made a comment about being the best on the team. I don't know. That's it either. Right?
[00:05:11] Speaker B: That's what I was just going to next.
[00:05:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know. That's it. I would say that there could be something, if you aspire to be a great player, there could be something that's attractive about that but that doesn't necessarily have to mean we've got incredible leaders in our organization. They might not have a title that is a leadership title, but I know they're leaders because I watch the way people interact and react to what they do.
[00:05:32] Speaker B: I was recently listening to a podcast and I cannot remember who it is. I'm bummed. But it's a current professional athlete or maybe formal. Either way, play professional sports. And they said growing up, one of their biggest lessons was somebody on their team was made captain by the coach. Right? And they weren't. And they were by far the best player on the team, even young. And that player, that guy went up to the coach and was like, why was Mike made captain? Like, he sucks just like that. And the coach just went crazy on the player and he's like, that was my first lesson, that being a leader and being the best player on the team are not the same thing and they could actually be opposite.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: Well, and you would say that question asked that way is exactly the reason why you're not the captain. Right.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: But I would say I do think I see more captains that tend to be the better players on the team. Do you agree?
[00:06:27] Speaker A: I think it depends on the level. Like if you got four guys standing at the 50 at a football game, they're all elite world class athletes and football. True. So I think it depends on where you're dropping in at a particular level. 6th grade, 7th grade versus.
But yeah, it seems to be that way. I mean, I know early on in sports and coaching, there was more of this rotation thing, right? Who hasn't been captain yet? You'd raise your hand, but once you start to pick captains or leaders, when the team start to pick them, that's the one that's really interesting.
[00:06:58] Speaker B: Right? That's what we had in college. We were selected by our teammates. I think, too, when you're younger, you either are captain and the best player because the coach does not disseminate between a real leader and the best player. They just choose or it's a confidence thing. They're the best player unless they're confidence and thus they become more of a leader.
[00:07:19] Speaker A: Yeah, I think both. I mean, I was always attracted to the gritty. May not be the best player, but the gritty playing soccer or the team sports, someone that was gritty, tough. If. If I had to climb into a foxhole, who on this team would I drag it? That would be the one that I would want to be the captain or I was most attracted to or wanted to be one of the leaders of the team. If there was two captains or whatever it happened to be outside of, there's an interesting.
So who are some of your favorite leaders in and around wherever business ones you grew up with left. Left fingerprints on you, where you're like, oh, yeah. I mean, some of my leadership skill set I definitely borrowed from, or plagiarized, if you will, from. Who'd you fill in?
[00:08:03] Speaker B: I don't know. I don't have one answer for that. It's definitely a culmination of so many different people. There's not one person. I could just say they were off the top of my head. They're my person. I've modeled a lot of my leadership tendencies. It's a culmination of a lot of people that I've pulled from sports, from, mainly from sports and business. Yeah, those two worlds.
[00:08:27] Speaker A: How about, would you say that the people that had that influence were always a physical part of your life versus listening to someone or the teachings of like, for example, one that resonates with me along the way, I got the privilege of listening to Norman Schwarzkoff speak, and that was one that had some great takeaways. So usually I would say it was the people that I was physically in contact with, whether that be coaches, teachers, my dad, but that was one that I watched from a little bit further away and was fascinated. And his idea of just make the decision right. He said we sat around talking for hours about things, and he even say they weren't battlefield decisions. Right. Not making a decision would be far worse than even getting it wrong because we could always pivot and get it back in the right lane. But that was one, for example, that was incredibly strong, obviously, but one of the few I remember that were arm's length where I thought, oh, that's interesting.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: So would you say that mine has definitely been people. For me, it has to be somebody I've experienced in person. I think I've listened to a lot of great, influential people, but it doesn't have the same effect on me. And honestly, I'm not saying I haven't been touched by a lot of great leaders that I've learned a lot from.
That's not true. I have, but I've definitely learned more my leadership skills by just being, experiencing things and then learning how people react and how people respond and then adjusting to that. So it's been more in how I've just experienced the real world and adjusted to those reactions, I think.
[00:10:02] Speaker A: Do you think you can pinpoint a particular attribute if you're thinking about one of those leaders, can you pinpoint a particular attribute that you think resonated with you or you saw that and thought, I'm going to take that with me going forward?
That seems to be a powerful tool.
[00:10:17] Speaker B: That person has for me. I always go back to the confidence piece because even if you're wrong, if you're confident, people seem to, as you say, follow. There was actually one of my friends growing up, you know her, and she was so confident, no matter, just in everything she did, she was a great soccer player, she had a personality, but she was never the best player. She was never the best really at anything. But the power of just what she said. She believed in herself. She didn't care how she looked.
She's just her right. And I always admired that about her. It was that just confidence in her raw, in just who she was. Never changed for anyone. Never changed in any situation. Even when we were young, which is rare. Rare, very rare. So I think, I definitely think about that a lot and that confidence piece. And that's what I always talk about what soccer did for me more than anything as a young female, it empowered me and gave me confidence, which is translated, it changes everything for me. It's the reason I can go into a room with 20 males and feel like, not even notice. There are so many things that just translate over. So if I had to pick one thing, it would be the confidence piece. It wouldn't be how much, you know, how you present.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: Right. And the other piece that's critical too is at some point as you get older or deeper into your career life or whatever, the credibility piece too, right?
[00:11:46] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:11:46] Speaker A: Of course. Yeah. It's not just full steam ahead and hopefully I have this right. No, but there's that credibility piece. Mix that with some confidence, then you've got something that's really palpable.
[00:11:56] Speaker B: Yes. A question. Can I raise my hand?
So they talk about a lot. You're the only one they talk about a lot. A lot of people talk about, which I don't want to go into this. It's just overplayed topic. I want to extend or expand on it, I should say. So the difference between managers and leaders, we know they're not the same thing. We know you can be a shitty manager and a good leader and vice versa. I would throw in visionary into that. I think there's visionaries, there's leaders and there's managers and they all interplay.
Where would you see yourself and your skill set? Do you align with one of those more than the rest? With all of them a little bit.
[00:12:42] Speaker A: I would say visionary and leader far before manager, actually. I would say I probably suck management or if I have to manage something, I suck. Yeah. That is not a superpower or anything that looks like one. I think the visionary piece is the one I'm most excited about, too. That's what I like to do. It wouldn't be just the idea that you've heard the saying, skate to where the puck is going. It would be that you'd be there waiting for it, right? It would be that visionary that you'd have an idea or connection. They don't have to be massive either. It doesn't have to be Uber. It doesn't have to be something of that size and scale or some of the things that are going on today, but can be little things that you do in anticipation. Right. You take preparation and throw in some anticipation, and then you've got yourself out ahead of competition or whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish. So the visionary piece by far. And then from a leader perspective, my favorite thing about that is, like I said before with the Nancy Grasmick Institute, is helping people be better than they would if they were just on their own. That's my favorite part of it.
I know it's not manager.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm not very good at that. It's an interesting, because I hear a lot of founders that have started the business, and it's a lot of visionary creatives that later realize they suck at managing. So then they bring on ceos. It's just somebody that actually can operate, and they're like, holy shit, I didn't realize that. I was not actually made to operate this business. And they go back to the visionary branding side of things. So interesting. I mean, the same as you.
[00:14:19] Speaker A: And it's funny, the packaging world is interesting in that we get exposed to a lot of startups, which is a cool spot where someone approaches and says, I've got the next greatest widget. Sometimes they've left, it's a side hustle, or sometimes they've actually left or recently left their career to pursue whatever it is. And it's interesting how many times we see that the founder was a salesperson, right? They had sales talent, or they were an engineer or so on and so forth. And then you watch them try to hustle to build out the rest. Like if you were building a baseball team, you wouldn't want three left fielders and four first basemen, right? You'd have a player in each space. And it's fascinating watching them. And a lot of times I've been around it enough where I can tell, even though I'm working downstream, right. The widget is there, and most times they haven't thought about packaging along the way at all. It's like, oh, my God, I got this widget. Who got a box? I don't know. I thought you got a box. I thought you got a box. So we come in late sometimes, and it can even be panic in certain areas.
But you can tell. I look at the organization and go, I bet the founder here's an engineer. I can watch how things are going, or if I'm looking at where I look at it and go, oh, boy, this place is a mess. The founder must be a salesman, right? A salesperson, because you can see the operational side of the business isn't as fierce as other parts, right? And they're usually calling us, if it's not that, it's automation, because the founder is such a good salesperson that they're oversubscribed to, and they're like, holy hell, how do we get all this out the door?
That's where the bottleneck or the constraint is, right? Which is a better problem to have than no sales.
So it's interesting to watch that, and you can see what's going on in those businesses.
[00:16:02] Speaker B: I think about this a lot, and I think I realized early on that I was more on the visionary side. I remember being at my old employer, and one of the executives said to me, and it wasn't an insult, but it wasn't a compliment. And it was something along lines of, you're just like the big dreams girl. And I took it as neutral because it was almost saying what you're thinking of. They're great and they're grand, but they're not realistic type of thing. And what I've realized is, maybe that was true, but I do love that side of me like that. I can just think bigger. But as you said, you have to add the credibility piece in. And I probably didn't know enough, but once you. The more credible you are, and the more you know, the more you're actually able to be a visionary, because you're able to put all these points, connect all these points that you wouldn't have been able to, or these dots, I should say, sure, that you wouldn't have been able to. Now, there are so many things I think of, and some of my younger teammates are like, how did you even think of that? I'm like, oh, it's just because I can connect these dots. Now I know where they all go.
[00:17:09] Speaker A: Right.
[00:17:10] Speaker B: You'll be able to do that in a few years.
[00:17:12] Speaker A: Right. Well, prior to that, you didn't know what you didn't know, and that's what it all starts to come together, which.
[00:17:16] Speaker B: Could be good, too. Sometimes it's better to not know.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: Yeah. Because fear is never an issue. You don't have fear in your way if you don't know what the hell you're doing. So what do you think about from a leadership perspective, the idea of fairness or even democracy, as far as leadership? I mean, that's an interesting. When I grew up and there was a lot more boomers, if you will, right? We've talked about this. I don't talk about the generations to pick on one or the other, but there are very clearly defined differences in the generation. So if you look at the boomers, for example, the way they led and managed, if you will, has a little bit different look than today. I would say there's more of a democratic look to it now than there was historically. Right. It's like my way or the highway or whatever those sayings are. What do you think about that?
[00:18:06] Speaker B: In my opinion, democracy doesn't work. A flat organization doesn't work.
But I am adamant, and I will not do it any other way. Big decisions, I get input from my entire team. Now. I have a small team, and everybody in my organization has a lot of authority because we're so small. That could change a little bit as we grow. But I will not make a big decision most of the time, almost 100% of the time, call it 99, though, without their input. At the end of the day, I'm calling the final shot though, right. And I could get input and I could make another decision. But I will tell you, I would say most, again, probably 95% of the time, I'm making a decision that typically is a culmination of ideas of my team.
[00:18:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:18:58] Speaker B: I really am. It's usually not me going against the grain, and I think it's because we communicate and we eventually all arrive at the same thing, not without contradictions and devil's advocate and all of that. So I'm making the ultimate decision, but the input is very important.
[00:19:15] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's called a benevolent dictator is the word of that. Right. And I agree. And certainly, too, different organizations operate different ways. I mean, do you have shareholders? Are you the sole shareholder? What's the risk component for you individually versus the organization? Those are all factors. But I agree with you. I think that collaboration component and somewhat by committee. I mean, if you're not careful, nothing ever gets done. You're right. You do have to make a decision. You do have to make a choice. And we've talked about efficiency equals right times commitment and meaning that as long as everybody's committed, and I think that's what you're building in your team. When you're having those conversations and they're buying in or contributing, they're also at the same time taking some ownership in the decision so you don't have anyone on the side going. I knew that wasn't going to work. Remember, I told you so. At the same time, in building that consensus, you're also getting ownership or buy in. So if you're off a little bit, meaning you're not exactly right and you have to pivot, everybody's completely in line and you're pivoting together.
[00:20:15] Speaker B: So you have to have the buy in or it won't work. But I don't do it for the buy in. I do it because it makes our. If you're doing it like, I got to get this buy in. And so I'm going to ask for, it's not going to work. But if it's genuine, I need the input, and I do, because most things I'm doing for the first time, then you can get the buy in because everybody's ideas are actually taken into account. But what I will say, too, is I'm talking about executive decisions, and I don't have as much of this luxury as you do. What we've been talking about, what you're working on specifically as we both go through struggles, is pushing almost all responsibilities, or a lot of them, down to your five execs. And so at that point, you are transferring ownership to your five execs and having them make the ultimate decision. Correct. So you're making the decision to let them or allow them to make the ultimate decision. Right? Yeah, we're talking about. There's different scenarios here.
[00:21:15] Speaker A: Yeah, sure. No, in those particular moments, they have authority over their specific business unit, whatever that happens to be, sales or so on or so forth. But yes, not only in some instances, they have influence. Right. If the five of us are sitting around an executive meeting and we're talking about policy, right. A company policy, then I'm listening for input. Each of their perspectives is different, which makes them very valuable, and I'm listening for input. But below that, as far as running the business unit in Arnold packaging called know, John Marsh calls the shots. Right. And my team is getting so me. We have varying. We didn't know. Okay.
[00:21:55] Speaker B: The little burp on camera.
[00:21:59] Speaker A: This water doesn't do it for me.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: Comfortable?
[00:22:03] Speaker A: Good. That's nice. Sorry, everybody.
We have all varying tenures on our exec team. Under a year to a year and so on and so forth. Our vp of sales, I think he's on week nine right now. But the culture is such that they're really smart about taking cues from their teammates as well, to the point where I think they know it would be. While I have the authority to make this decision, I think I'm still going to check into. Right. Hey, mc, what do you think about. I had an idea where. What would. But I will tell you in the end of those conversations, I will say, look, but you own it. I mean, here's my input. But you own it. And you're going to be responsible for making it work with whatever decision you make. But there's a really good, healthy level of checking in without it bogging the process down, though. There's that fine line. So, yeah, works.
[00:23:00] Speaker B: I would say your team is rather.
I mean, you've got a really diverse team of. On your exact team of personalities.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Very much so.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Which I think is really important.
[00:23:14] Speaker A: Very much so, yes. Backgrounds, ages, viewpoints. Yeah, absolutely. It's like baseball, right? I don't have two of anything. Which is exactly how you'd build it.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Do you think that's required in an organization from a leadership perspective?
[00:23:31] Speaker A: No, I think the data confirms. Not even suggests, I think the data confirms that the more diversity you have, the more effective you can be. And I think it all goes back to those perspectives that we talk about. Right, where you've got. Because what you're doing when you're making those decisions, it could be for your customer base, right. It could be for the rest of the employees. And that executive or leadership team just mirrors those constituent groups. Right? I mean, if we're talking about a product offering or something like that, the input that we're listening to or discussing through really is just a smaller subset of the customer base, right. And that's what we're really trying to mirror or look as close as we can, because it's like. All right, because you're even putting yourself in their shoes at times. If we're working on policy which can affect our teammates, it would have a little bit different look. So I think it's the way to go. I will tell you that it wasn't necessarily intentional. I mean, in the moment when I was hiring for different roles or interviewing, I wasn't necessarily saying, oh, not that person, because we already have a third baseman. It wasn't like that. It happened to be that way. But I don't know. I think if you think about sales and automation and the different roles that they have, they're somewhat unique. And therefore, the person that is excellent at running it has a different look than the person that's excellent at running packaging, which has more, for example, of an operations look to it. And Steve Sutton is an expert in culture building and so on and so forth. The things that make him excellent at that are a little bit different than what make Kevin excellent at being the VP of automation.
[00:25:15] Speaker B: So one of the hardest things as a leader of an organization is when you have to decide that someone's not a good fit at the organization. Firing is that, how do you handle that? And I know obviously after running a business for x amount of years, it gets easier. But what's that identification look like? What's that time period look like? How do you make that decision?
Take me through. When you're identifying this might not be a fit through that person's final day termination and how you handle that and how you've evolved through that procedure.
[00:25:53] Speaker A: Yeah, gosh, I remember, I think I was 23 or 24 years old when I fired my first person. And my father was alive and he made me do it.
It was right. It wasn't a fit. The alignment was off. But I don't know if I've ever sweat like that in my entire life before I was wet.
[00:26:16] Speaker B: When you think about firing, it's easy to talk about it, but when you actually get in front of a person, and this is their entire livelihood, it's how they're making their money, it's how they're supporting their family.
You cannot imagine it until you're in front of that person. The game changes.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: But I'll tell you, you asked about evolution. I'll tell you what makes it easier is not the correct word here. But I will tell you that what I at least have evolved so much in is the process prior to it. I mean, we had a great strategic planning session to start the year. And one of the exercises that we did was we identified our values. And we came up with seven values and their team first and desire, and ones that certainly integrity, things that you're aware of. And I will tell you that was so helpful because you can stand those up to your other teammates, and if they're not aligned with the values, then it's probably off. Now, the challenging part of that was we did it in January of 23 on our nintieth anniversary. So while we're going through it, and the process is, people are our team. It was my executive team and I in a room, locked down type set up, and we're writing all these words down on postit notes, and we're grouping them together, and it's like, well, everyone seems to feel strongly about this word, and then we would evolve it a little bit and we might talk about some synonyms and finally arrive there. But as we're doing it, and I was very intentional not to over participate, that I wanted it to be appropriate. I didn't want it to be mixed values.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: Is this true, John? No. Over participation by Mick.
[00:27:55] Speaker A: I think that's right, yeah. I don't think I'm lying, whoever thinks they're lying, but idea, I didn't want them to be mixed values, and it was amazing. I wouldn't have changed anything. I mean, everyone was so well aligned. But as we're going through that exercise, I am standing those values up to my teammates who are in the room, and I'm going, and at any point, I'm going, uhoh, one of those up o moments where we come up with team first is one of them. I'm looking around the room going, all right, these people are all team first. But then you start to stand it up to other parts of the company. And that lack of alignment on values, for example, could suggest either a wrong seat or wrong bus. And when you approach it that way, when it ultimately comes time to call it quits, you've had very fair conversations along the way. You've had a communication structure and ultimately a feedback loop for that individual, then unfortunately, it shouldn't be that surprising. If you've done it correctly and you've communicated honestly and you've done everything that you can, because the first thing I'll look at is say, why is so and so failing? What am I doing wrong? If it's one of my direct reports, the first thing is, am I leaned in enough? Am I giving them the tools that they need to be successful? And if I think the answer is no, then it's all right. My conversation with this individual is going to sound this way, and I would have some ownership. Look, it's not really working here, and I don't know that I've given you all the tools that you need to be successful. So here's what I'm going to do. Here's what you need to do. And I would say, if there's anything that's changed or evolved in the process. It's leading up to it. And if you do it right, by the time you have to sit in that room on that horrible day, and that person walks in and there's hr in the room, and if you have experience, like, uhoh, that's not a good thing, then you're almost just having the final conversation and acknowledging that the alignment is not there and that everyone would be better served somewhere else. And that's. I think if there's. It's not easy, but that's something that's evolved in the process that I definitely didn't have the skill set on when I was younger and responsible for things.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: Yeah, you had to go through it recently.
[00:30:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:02] Speaker B: How'd you do as you were talking? I didn't want to interrupt you, but you know, when you just want to start talking.
Thank you. Well, I actually learned that I was listening to a psychologist. Whether it's true or not, they might have been trying to make people feel better. They said, when you interrupt somebody, it's actually a good thing because somebody's so interested in engaged in what you have to say.
[00:30:20] Speaker A: Right.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: So if I ever interrupt you, I.
[00:30:21] Speaker A: Would have taken it that way. Yes.
[00:30:23] Speaker B: But actually, three things on this, but one we talked about in one of our episodes there, our relationship works really well as a sounding boards because I get to take the 90 years of wisdom and expedite my learning process and what I do with my company, and you get to take the scrappiness and the grind of a young company. But this is one of those examples. So even it was one of my first fires, I had done a lot of things leading up, so there was no surprise it took three minutes, because I had had all the meetings and I had had all the communication. I wouldn't have had I not listened to a lot of the things that you had done and told me or just seen in person. And then the other thing was, as you were talking about those values meeting you have with your team, I truly always have looked at values and mission statements as complete bullshit. Like, this is stupid. I feel like everybody just does it to do it.
It's just, let me put this banner on a wall, and it's our mission statement. I've just never believed in it. But then when we started talking about it, and you're like, no, but it's a real metric, and it makes things so much easier, because when you're in the front of person, you're like, okay, let's look at these values. And for my team, we're going to do the same thing. We haven't done it yet. And I want us to get super specific. I don't want them to just be overarching. Very specific. But when you're sitting. And change every year, too, as we evolve, but when you're sitting down with somebody.
Let's go, let's compare. Let's look at the metrics. It's just black and white, and it makes that conversation so much easier. So now I look at values way differently than I did, and I'm bought in. Where before, I just thought it was this nice pie in the sky. Let's put it on the wall.
[00:32:01] Speaker A: Yeah, well, there's a case in point. I had to have a conversation with someone on my team along the way because they made some choices that were a little different than I thought they should be. I'll say that kindly. And we talked about the values. It was, you did this. And in thinking about it, I'm not sure that aligns with values three and six. Whatever it happened to be, or team first or whatever it was, and it's not even important now, but it was just such a natural conversation. It wasn't like this grinder thing. We had a conversation. We did not have a dictation, which is horrible, right? And if everyone shows up appropriately, what a great way to do it. Right? I mean, do you agree that maybe that wasn't in line with the value we call Blah sticking in here? And, yeah, we got through it. And I agree with you. I've done the mission vision, but this values thing.
And, man, we have a part of our executive meeting where we put the seven values on the board, and we don't go around the room. People just start talking about employees that they witnessed exhibiting the values when no one was looking. So, I mean, it's become more and more apart, and it's all over the place, and it's how they held each other accountable. It's like, hey, man, was that team first? I mean, you did whatever you did. Was that really team first? And it's been interesting, but some of this stuff. We're 90 years old this year. People are like, oh, great, Mickey, you got values. Way to go. Why so fast? 90 years? You never stop learning. It doesn't matter what anniversary you're on, because the world's changing, the competitive pressures are changing, the people are changing. As we start to get the next generation into business, how they got here, how they grew up, what they experienced along the way. They have some different traits that you have to understand, and it's going to require you to continue to evolve. And some of those things where we have these light bulb moments. And sometimes I think, God, what was I thinking? Why did it take me so long to get here? But you get there. That's the important part. But that's been a really big one.
[00:34:01] Speaker B: How do you think, what is the best approach or strategy to teaching the young people in your organization leadership, especially when they often don't have a seat at the table when executive decisions are being made.
How do you think we can really help expedite that leadership process for our young people? And if you see a natural leader, do you typically hone in on those particular employees, or are you looking at it the same for every employee, or are you trying to cater personally to their.
[00:34:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a great question.
[00:34:49] Speaker B: Leadership qualities.
[00:34:50] Speaker A: Yeah. So one thing we do is we give them opportunities to lead. Like, that's a big one, right? So, for example, we have an emerging thought leaders group inside of our organization. And it's 1011. And one of your teammates is on there. They range from 24 to 34, something like that, give or take. And it's a group that we put together. They do a great job of welcoming younger teammates that come in. So you're not walking around in a 75 person organization not knowing who anyone is. So they've got lots of friendly faces around, and any number of them are one or two or three or four years into their tenure with either one of the divisions. So that's been great. But, for example, Tommy, one of our capable producers, is the leader of the emerging thought leaders group. So while Tommy doesn't necessarily have a seat at the table, the Arnold packaging table, in every situation at this point in his career, he does a very valuable role leading that younger team and younger generation. And he and his team are responsible for our philanthropic outreach, our community engagement. They work on continuing education to make sure that not just they are getting what they need, but the whole organization. We did excel, for example, what seems like the simplest things, but, man, what's more important than personal productivity? So one of the way things we do is we try to create these opportunities for them to lead and lean into it, give them resources, coach them along the way. And then your second question.
Look, I like to think that trying to coach everybody, I would love every single person to be a leader, the fork truck driver, every single person to be a leader inside the organization and take that credibility, credibility and confidence piece and deploy it, and then really say, and then we mix in a little bit of know how and some technical expertise, and then, God, what can we grow that individual into? And if we do the right job, and hopefully they stay here at one of the divisions and explode their career, or if there's a better opportunity, we're okay with that, too. Right. And we just want everybody to be happy and in the right place.
Sometimes it's with another organization or we've had really valuable people say, I got an opportunity I just can't pass on, and that's great.
Okay. I'm okay with it. Yeah, it's not, I mean, it's disruptive and whatever else, but, man, I would never stay in anyone's way if they have an opportunity to create a better life opportunity or whatever for themselves or their family.
So each smaller team, like, you've got one individual on your team that stepping up recently with some of the.
[00:37:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, Ferrari, it's totally different. I mean, I bring them to the table, to the big conversations.
[00:37:43] Speaker A: True.
[00:37:44] Speaker B: I'm learning the more I empower, the better some of the young people are getting.
But the other thing I thought was really interesting, we're sitting on these as we sit on advisory boards, and I've thought about this for so long. Why are there not younger advisory boards? Right. Like, for the young people that aren't normally going to be on a board. So as we were at the junior achievement, they were talking about an associate board for younger people to experience that advisory board. But the other thing, too, which is just an aha moment for me, especially for Ja, that's in the education system. And as AI and technology gets really important. Well, if you've got a bunch of 60 year olds on a board that just don't understand AI and technology, how the hell are we going to deploy that or create a curriculum when we don't even understand it? You have to have that younger advisory board to get better. This is going to be exponentially more important as we go. So I can't wait till every nonprofit, every company that has boards starts creating these different associate boards. I think it's brilliant.
[00:38:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
The idea, too, like we were just talking about a second ago, if that diversity is powerful, because what you're really doing is you're trying to look like or anticipate what your audience is going to want. And ja, for example, their audience is young people. So how would you have a room full of 60 year old ought to say dudes? Right? Because I can't. How would you have them? What about. That would look like the demographic that you're trying to serve. Yeah. Not get that input. And that's been super valuable for me in listening and engaging the emerging thought leaders group in our fireside chats. Just all the made up stories that I had about what their experiences were or how they were raised or grew up as digital natives versus adopters like me. And I was off on any number of things, so how would I ever know how to build offerings or be able to relate to that next generation coming in? If I'm walking around with a bunch of made up stories about what I thought was going on, you have to have that input. So, I mean, the associate board idea is brilliant. Still don't know of any, do you?
[00:40:01] Speaker B: Well, the JA is creating one.
[00:40:04] Speaker A: Yeah, but they haven't, right?
[00:40:06] Speaker B: I'm sure they're out there and I've heard it, but no, I haven't experienced one. The other thing that weighs so heavily on my mind as it relates to this topic and so many others, there's a population that continually just gets left out. We always talk about the younger people and that's great. Obviously it's important we all know that. What about the people that are in their 50s or 60s or older or forty s and they've never had the leadership opportunities and they've never been put there. I just feel like that population gets left out in so many opportunities.
It doesn't matter how old you are, everybody wants to get better, everybody wants to learn, everyone wants to be empowered. And that's just so sad to me. I just don't think we do enough for people from their forty s to sixty s beyond maybe a little bit in mid 30s, whatever it is. But they're not the youngest generation. But they still want to learn, they still want to get better, they still have talent. How do you develop, continue to develop those people? And they could be whatever they want at 40, 50. You can create a new opportunity, new position, new life and that, I always think about that because there are some people in my life that I know they don't have. They're exponentially older than me and I know they have so much untapped potential and I want to help them get there. And I feel like they don't get the same attention. And it just kills me inside.
[00:41:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's almost as if you don't stake your claim at some point early in your career, then you're alto pastor. I'll just pick a term like that.
[00:41:36] Speaker B: That's not right.
[00:41:37] Speaker A: Alfonso, who's our director of engineering, who went to the grasmic. He was our attendee, which was a nine month program, and they got deep, they got in there, and I think even to the point that they made them uncomfortable. They started off with personality profiles and they just gave us some hit list items on what they had been through for the time. And they started off making him incredibly uncomfortable in looking at themselves. I think Alfonso's 40, couple few. So there's an example, right? He had promoted into that role. This opportunity came up. I put it out and said to my team, anyone here or one of your directs interested? And he immediately raised his hand and said, just like you're talking about, heck yeah, I want to get better.
And I think the other thing is, how do you do it? I think we, as business owners, leaders, whatever, have got to be intentional about that employee growth.
We've got to continue to invest, identify opportunities, and at a cost. Right.
There's a cost to getting people into the program's leadership, whether that's they miss 3 hours every other Friday or whatever those things are. But if you make that investment and then they're able to ignite the people around them, then you start to get exponential return on that investment. Right. Alfonso comes back and has a team of engineers, and now he's better at his craft because he became a better communicator.
Something they taught him, improved his EQ and his emotional EQ, his emotional whatever.
[00:43:12] Speaker B: Intelligence.
[00:43:12] Speaker A: Yeah, his mo. Thank you. His emotional intelligence got better. Right. And he had a better conversation.
If you understand the breed, you can train the dog type mentality. So that type of investment is critical, but I don't know, it gets off. And the other thing too is it would be really helpful if employees and or our teammates continued to demand it, if you will. Right. To say, hey, I'd like to, I found this program. Would you invest in me for a three day, five day, five month, whatever that platform would look like? Would you do that? And they would be required to make somewhat of an ROI presentation. Why? What are you thinking? What's the benefit? Tell me what the return on investment would look like for both of us. Because you're going to make an investment in time, and I'm going to make an investment in whatever it is. Right. It could be cash out of pocket, could be gone every third Friday or something along those lines. But it would be great too, if we have earlier tenure employees, their twenty s, thirty s, forty s, twenty s, thirty s, demand. Go find it. Go find that and come in and say, I think you had one of your employees looking for a project manager spot. I'd really like to take this, Bret, will you invest in me? So I think it's also incumbent. It can't just be one way. Where I'm saying, now, what can I do today to grow my employees personally? What can I do for their personal development? It's got to be a two way street where you're saying, I think I can grow personally, if you will make the investment called this, and here's what it entails, and here's what I intend to do with what I learned.
[00:44:40] Speaker B: Yes, I would like to be, to be a call to action to all employers to think about not just the young people, where it's just so natural. Like, here's the leadership program. Here's what we're going to do for our young leaders. Just think about everybody in the organization. And I think it's harder because as you get a little bit older, you get more set in your ways, and it's harder to change and think differently. But I hope that we all think about those different people in different generations, because everybody at every stage of their life wants to continue to get better.
[00:45:12] Speaker A: Well, I think, look, if you're going to continue to grow as an organization, if you're not looking to activate every single person that you can, and it's not to say that everybody's going to fit right in.
There are people that are amazing role players, if you will, and they're fantastic and they love it, and they're awesome at what they do, and they're incredibly valuable. But I would least certainly attempt to activate everybody that I could in that regard. And if there are people that love what they're doing and they're crazy effective and they do what they do, then that's amazing.
[00:45:43] Speaker B: Well, it's just about opportunity. It's not saying anybody has to bite on it. Not everybody wants to be a manager or a leader, and it's just about that equal opportunity and intention. That's it.
[00:45:54] Speaker A: And I think across the board, too, I don't want to get on this mindset. Like, we're only talking about certain levels inside the company. I mean, everybody through ops, we have warehousing, we have transportation, we have manufacturing. I mean, trying to activate everybody through the entire organization and giving them opportunities to take on more, do more, be more. That's across the board. I think sometimes anyone think we're locking in on just upper level, right? Or you have to get to this level to be worthy of this investment. Well, how the hell do you get there, right? I mean, unless you have some magic thing that you were born with and you just worked your way up, you're going to need some of that investment to go continue to compete at the next level and the next level and the next level.
And I then need to get up from this seat and go practice everything we're talking about and make sure that I'm not just talking bullshit here.
[00:46:50] Speaker B: Yeah. So as an owner, when you're in your day to day, we have so mean. How are you improving your.
[00:47:03] Speaker A: A? As far as input that I take, I tend to be more real time. So I do enjoy. CNBC, for example, does have a lot of great business leaders that come on, they're talking about new things or it's a new company. It's a new venture inside of a company.
Elon Musk and people like that. I mean, some of my favorites. Dan Cody, the former CEO of Honeywell, was one of my favorites to listen to, Jack Welsh with Ge. So I'm always listening for cues and watching them speak. I will watch some podcasts on it, especially if there's something in particular Ted talks I'm a big fan of. That's a great platform where you can dial in on a specific topic. Brene Brown is one of my favorites who talks about vulnerability and EQ.
So that's some of the stuff I'm doing. But I sat there in that ceremony the other day and thought, I need to do this, too. Right? I mean, just because I happen to be in the corner office doesn't mean I'm as good of a leader as I could be. That's not it. I need to continue to invest and be at the top of my game, too. Because as we continue to grow and get on the radar of very thick competitors, and we talk about that fractional difference at the top of the pyramid, I've got to make sure that I'm capable of competing at that level, too.
[00:48:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I do all those things, but for me, I get some things out of listening to podcasts and books, and I do it constantly. But mine's far and beyond. I grow my leadership skills by experiencing. So my gauge is typically, like, if something is making me uncomfortable and I'm pretty scared, I'm like, oh, boy, I do not want to take this on. That's always my cue to go in. And what is that saying that the Phoenix has to burn to get better? Something along those lines, but I don't know. I mean, you've got to get it comfortable and shit's got to go sideways, and then you've got to learn how to handle it. That is always my gauge on how uncomfortable have I been lately, and have I looked the other way and turned, or have I gone straight through it? And I always come out a better, I'm just better learned, but a better leader that way. So that's how, as I'm growing this business and things get harder, how am I handling those situations? And I think that has really made me a better leader.
[00:49:16] Speaker A: Sure. And failure is a great lesson. I've been at this, I think, in this role 30, almost 30 years. And, man, the number of failures I've had along the way, if not just flat, unadulterated f ups or just not getting it completely right or having to backtrack or pull an offering. I mean, you name it, I've tried it, and those are great, man. You'd love to not have to do that, but it doesn't work that way. Right? They call it experience because you have to do it once. And the failure component is really important, and that's a great way to learn. And provided you missed the bomb, like we always talk about the bomb, right?
That you do get to tweak and pivot and reevaluate, then sometimes you might just have to get back in and outrun it. You might have the ability to outthink it anymore. You might just have to outwork it.
[00:50:05] Speaker B: There's a difference, too. I mean, everybody says fail fast, which I don't love that I don't really subscribe to it. And I also don't think you have to fully fail. I think things aren't going wrong. You don't have to hit the bottom and fail all the way out. There's a lot of things that I've gotten into, like, this isn't working. This isn't working. And then you pivot and change and make it work in the end. So I would say there's not a ton. There are some things that just flat out haven't worked, but most of the time I'm able to catch it close to the bottom and reroute. So that's always my goal. It's understanding this is not a linear path and riding it out with ups and downs, but catching it before it gets to the bottom and making sure it still ticks up a little bit.
[00:50:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. I think the fail fasting is interesting. I mean, that's ripped out of context a lot, too.
Even if you don't go to full failure, you're just the idea that you've recognized that it's not going correctly and you're going to stop doing this and start doing this. Right. I mean, there's stop, continue, start. You're just like, yeah, that's not working. Let's stop doing that and start doing this. It wouldn't be to light the whole damn thing on fire, right. It doesn't have to be to that level. But I would say, what, have you gotten in trouble or haven't gotten things completely right? It's when, usually when we stepped out too far outside of our lane and our assets and resources weren't aligned such that we could do it.
It was a wild one. And you look at it, you go, gosh, it's too far outside of our particular lane to be sustainable. So choice, leave it out there and cut it off. Just jettison it, or figure out how to get it closer to the lane so that you can use your resources and assets or whatever those are to affect that thing that you're trying to.
[00:51:53] Speaker B: Do or commit to building infrastructure to support it.
[00:51:56] Speaker A: Right.
Or go pour more resource. Right. Or go get the right assets and resources and pour it on that thing and widen your lane. Exactly. Right to that point. Those are all choices. Those are all choices.
[00:52:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Who was I just, I was talking about, it was a CEO that said if there's a customer, I think it was shopify. He said if there was customers, they would almost break his system. Like on Shopify, they would just outsell and they just couldn't support the growth and the dynamics of particular companies. And they would always say, no, we're not going to turn this customer away. We are going to change and pivot so we can support them. And that's what they've continually did. Just like, holy shit, we've got to expand. I think they come up with, it's some crazy number, like hundreds of new offerings. I don't know if it's on a monthly or annual basis that they just blast out, like to try test it all, but they always want to change and to support their customers. So they look at it as like, you broke our system. Good, we're going to get better.
[00:53:03] Speaker A: Yeah, we're going to rally resources to that.
[00:53:06] Speaker B: It's like a muscle. You tear it down and it builds a little bit stronger.
[00:53:09] Speaker A: Yeah, that sounds to me like they're willing to make investments to keep widening their lane across all those different business profiles and classes. One of our buddies just launched a shoe business that he's working on, Shopify. And the experience was cool. They have a configurator and man, what that platform has done to launch small business and take care of some of those really tough things, the op side, shipping and that whole piece. I ordered some shoes the other day from made a plus. We probably ought to give those guys.
[00:53:38] Speaker B: A custom shoe fast. Custom?
[00:53:40] Speaker A: Yeah. They are making shoes in Annapolis, Maryland. They are 3d printing any number of components. And the big push behind, I don't know if you knew this or not, but 30% of shoes that are made end up going in the trash can. That's how high the level of waste is in that industry. So his idea was, well, if I can, I can start 30% ahead if I don't, throw 30% of it away. So he's knitting the uppers and they're doing the shoe construction, right in Annapolis to start. They've got a pretty cool configurator, custom. They've got some stock offerings, but that Shopify platform, and I can imagine where it's like, oh, we can't help the shoe guy. All right, guys, get on this and figure out what our platform needs to look like to help a custom shoe manufacturer figure out the milestones and figure out the roadmap and get it on there. And let's make sure we can service someone that wants to make shoes.
[00:54:29] Speaker B: I love it. Total.
Not to glorify the startup life. Startup life. Because it sucks, but he's living it, man. Sleeping in the office, all nighters, caffeine, Red Bull. I mean, that's when we went to canvas.
That was total startup for me. Those robotics they had, their tables were like a piece of plywood.
[00:54:50] Speaker A: No, they were doors.
[00:54:51] Speaker B: There were doors.
I just eat that up.
[00:54:54] Speaker A: Yeah. We went to a startup up in Pittsburgh that does. They do drones. Flying drones.
[00:54:58] Speaker B: Well, they got bought by Amazon. Right?
[00:55:00] Speaker A: That's canvas.
[00:55:00] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:55:01] Speaker A: Yeah. This one is a company called Gather, and they have these drones that fly around and validate inventory and rack systems. And that was the one. Their conference table was a couple of saw horses and a.
Yeah. And I think there's some great stories about Kevin Planck from Under Armour, holding his meetings with his team around. The ping pong table was their boardroom table. So, yeah, lots of ways to do it. And, I mean, that's the cool part about leadership, is it will ever be evolving, and that's because it involves people, and they're ever going to be evolving, too. So it'll never stop. You can always continue to work on your craft, especially with anything that involves people.
[00:55:37] Speaker B: Yeah. And there's no right way. Right? There's so many different ways to lead, and so many different people might align with your leadership or not, no matter what you do.
[00:55:49] Speaker A: Sure.
[00:55:49] Speaker B: So I think if you're someone who believes you're a leader, wants to be a leader, I think it's really important to lean in on what you believe in and what you think you're good at and go that path. As we listen, I try to be very conscious about what I put into my brain. There are so many times I cold plunge, do whatever, and I tensionally do it without anything in my ears. A lot of times I'll walk outside just because I want to make sure I have enough time to think for myself.
[00:56:17] Speaker A: Right.
[00:56:17] Speaker B: I like the ideas. I get a lot of inspiration from them. But I also want to know that I'm making decisions and thinking really creatively for myself. And you cannot do that if you have things in your ears 24/7 so I think it's really important to take that time to just let your brain wander so you can be you and lead the way that you do or think the way you want to think. And if you don't allow yourself that time, you'll never be able to do it, ever.
There is a thing of over learning and over consuming.
[00:56:45] Speaker A: Yeah. You only have so much bandwidth, right? I mean, you can only absorb so much and only have so much capacity at any particular time. And if you're moving stuff in, at some point you have to be moving stuff out too. Right. It's not infinite. You don't have infinite capacity to learn and or pay attention to that many things. So you have to be sensitive and I think, intentional about what you're letting in. Right. About what you're letting in. Because if you let this in, there's a chance that you're letting something out that you might need later on.
[00:57:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And that's one of the things I did. As I told you, I have timers on my phone or whatever, that I don't use social media on my phone other than post. So I only leave enough time, which is it could take me 20 minutes to post, but I'll leave ten minutes total for the day to look at any social media across the board. Just ten minutes. And after that, my phone just won't let me get in. I could override it, but I don't. I don't need to as long as I can post in that ten minutes for my company page. But the reason is, and I'll have alarms to put the phone away. And as you read, it says, stop.
What does my alarm say? It says, stop over consuming. Start creating.
[00:57:49] Speaker A: That's good.
[00:57:50] Speaker B: And it's that just daily reminder, like, you don't need to consume it all. Just take in enough to get some inspiration and then just start creating. Just start curating.
[00:57:57] Speaker A: Well, look, I think I'll say this is my parting shot, is that I don't know that we've ever been in a bigger part of our history where leadership is going to be more important with all the different challenges that we have. I mean, as we sit here now, we can barely see across the parking lot because of the forest. Fires from Canada are now to the point they're down in Baltimore. They've closed down New York City in spots because they can't even work on airplanes because it's not safe to be outside with the air quality. I mean, you could go on and on and on about any of the number of threats. So if there was ever a time, and I'm sure every generation says this, they think they have it tougher than the one before. Boy, if there was ever a time where there needs to be some amazing leadership in and around, whether that's from a government perspective or business perspective or whoever all of those influencers are, it's right now.
[00:58:46] Speaker B: Amen, brother.
[00:58:47] Speaker A: That's all I got to say.
That's all I can say about that. Yeah, exactly. I don't even have my soapbox, but if I did, I'd get it out.
[00:58:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:58:56] Speaker A: That'll be one of my features. I think I'm going to bring a soapbox at next time. Well, great talk, as always.
[00:59:01] Speaker B: That was fun.
[00:59:01] Speaker A: Indeed.
[00:59:02] Speaker B: Until next week.
[00:59:03] Speaker A: Till next week. See you soon.
